Up in smoke! Dutch to ban tourists from buying pot

puffthemagicdragon · Post by **puffthemagicdragon** » Thu 2nd Dec 2010 06:20 pm

Boner wrote:It hasn't started yet, I'd guess you're still good for the next 6 months, the ban of mushrooms took a year to implement.

Thanks Boner - that's kinda what I thought. Have to see if I can get another trip in before next Summer.

westerkerk · Post by **westerkerk** » Thu 2nd Dec 2010 06:26 pm

I've been watching this space closely for the past few weeks and not had my two cents yet so regarding timescales for people worrying about up and coming trips...

I'll be going in January and I'm positive it won't have been implemented so soon. It would be incredibly difficult to implement, manage and maintain as it is, without giving the coffeeshops, tourists, police and residents less than a months notice.

Think of the administration involved for the government and coffeeshops just concerning the issuing of 'passes' to 'members', think of the setting-in-stone process of the punishment/fines system, think of the design and planning needed to be done by our friends, the police, think of the massive upheaval this will cause!

I actually do think this will happen. I'm not saying it is workable, and I'm not saying it will last, but yeah, i think it will happen.

Now I don't know much about the Dutch government, or how long they have been planning this, but I would say that this decision will have to go through a massive amount of red tape before final commitments are made to implement this change. Change costs money and uses resources, and they'll be no money or resources wasted on this until it is a sure thing. At the moment it's all rumour and spitballing by those who want it, isn't it.

From how I make my living, I know how long it takes to implement massive, highly opposed changes to tried and trusted systems.

I wouldn't personally expect to see any changes until 2012 at the earliest, and that would be on the basis that we hear something concrete by the second calendar quarter of 2011, but i stress, this is just my opinion.

Also I must say, as an aside, I love this city as much as my own, and I am desperately worried about the impact this will have out on the street. Dodgy street dealers will love this, they will make bags of Euros selling weed to anyone. Weed will still be massively accessible to Dutch residents, not all are going to smoke it themselves are they? Age will go out of the window, as dealers will sell to anyone, and quality will go way down. Crime will rise as a result and the cities residents will be the ones suffering - not us. It all smells like EU pressure for NL to 'conform' and I don't like it one bit. Who's left in the world with any common sense about cannabis? Spain? USA?

No doubt the Dutch government will recoup much of the money lost from any tourist weed dollars in fines.

Lafe · Post by **Lafe** » Thu 2nd Dec 2010 07:26 pm

Point taken from Westerkerk about a time frame for implementing something like this, from a logistical standpoint. OTOH it could be as simple as a door person checking IDs.

Or it could be self-policing, and then it might work out as well as the tobacco ban

I imagine some 'date certain' will be announced, and that might be the date everyone should keep in mind.

Entrepreneurial bartenders or other horeca employees stand to gain a great deal, if they choose to do so. Need weed? Just ask your concierge

westerkerk · Post by **westerkerk** » Thu 2nd Dec 2010 07:46 pm

I would definately hope it'd take more than a door person to get this lunacy off the ground. Though I get your point of course.

I see this as a massive change to a deeply embedded culture rather than a quick moving of the goal posts, thus requiring more in depth planning pre ban and better management post ban.

I get the feeling as well that things can swiftly change as far as this government is concerned, their overall priorities for one.

Boner · Post by **Boner** » Thu 2nd Dec 2010 08:07 pm

The ID card has a chip in it, all cards needed to make a purchase linked to the till, really simple to implement, those that dont will at the first instance get fined, then closed temporarily then closed permantley.

donpacino · Post by **donpacino** » Thu 2nd Dec 2010 08:30 pm

Boner wrote:The ID card has a chip in it, all cards needed to make a purchase linked to the till, really simple to implement, those that dont will at the first instance get fined, then closed temporarily then closed permantley.

That will take time to set up, the coffee shops will need to change there tills and those that do not have a computer system will need to install one. It will also cost money to set up, money which the netherlands has not got at the moment.

Dont forget that as soon as a date is announced there will be protest from the coffee shops, the tourist sector, the hotels, possibly even resturants etc, even the mayor of amsterdam disagrees with the plans. The government will need to get over these hurdles first which wont be a quick process, and that is just amsterdam for a start. From what i have read a few of the other bigger cities are not happy about it and are going to resist the proposed changes as well.

My point being is we shouldnt lose hope yet, anythng can change, especially in politics and in worst case scenario it will be while, plenth of time to fit in a few more trips.

westerkerk · Post by **westerkerk** » Thu 2nd Dec 2010 08:43 pm

Sounds like a killer idea Boner and one they'd probably use if they were going down the national id card route rather than the club 'membership' card some people are on about.

My point was from a logistical POV which happens to be my area of expertise if you like, so once there was a go ahead with this they would still have to script up the id card chip with the various suppliers of EPOS software or tilling machines depending how they did it, have coffeeshops that don't have the 'ready' technology upgrade, beta test it, prove it is fit for purpose, then put a timescale/deadline on suppliers rolling out software updates to customers for this system to be fully implemented.

Remember how chip and pin was implemented in the first place. Trust me, I know a lot about that!!!! Bane of my life!

By the way, I too am just spitballing here, and I'm not trying to be pedantic about your post in any way, it's a valid option that for all i know could be already developed. All I am saying is whatever happens, however easy it may seem to implement, there will always be logistical reasons why it cannot happen overnight, and i was just reassuring the people who are worrying about upcoming trips, with my own experience and my own opinions, that it won't.

If the new government really want this to succeed in the long term it ain't going to be some lightweight system or procedure that they implement. It needs to be robust enough to stand up to the critics and innovative people. If it's not, we're laughing because it'll change nothing.

tbk420 · Post by **tbk420** » Thu 2nd Dec 2010 09:31 pm

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Pauli Wallnuts · Post by **Pauli Wallnuts** » Thu 2nd Dec 2010 09:50 pm

are the proposals to stop non residents buying smoke, or stopping them entering coffeeshops alltogether?,
e.g if i can source my own stuff can i then go & buy a coffee in basjoes, sit down &skin up?
i think they'l have trouble making it illegal to enter a coffeeshop because of all the EU discrimination laws,
if tourists can still enter shops then imo this law will be impossible to implement, but if they are planning on banning us from even entering a premises then it might work,
but then what about if their electrics/phone/till/e.t.c fail, they phone an engineer &it turns out he emigrated to nederlands from england 15years but never became a resident, does that mean he cant do the job? thats blatant discrimination, will be interesting to see the small print of these proposals

westerkerk · Post by **westerkerk** » Thu 2nd Dec 2010 10:02 pm

Pauli Wallnuts wrote:are the proposals to stop non residents buying smoke, or stopping them entering coffeeshops alltogether?,
e.g if i can source my own stuff can i then go & buy a coffee in basjoes, sit down &skin up?
i think they'l have trouble making it illegal to enter a coffeeshop because of all the EU discrimination laws,
if tourists can still enter shops then imo this law will be impossible to implement, but if they are planning on banning us from even entering a premises then it might work,
but then what about if their electrics/phone/till/e.t.c fail, they phone an engineer &it turns out he emigrated to nederlands from england 15years but never became a resident, does that mean he cant do the job? thats blatant discrimination, will be interesting to see the small print of these proposals

Not sure about specifics but I thought the general idea was to make coffeeshops 'members only' where members can only be dutch citizens. I can see 1000+ potential problems with this.

If non dutch citizens are allowed in but can't 'buy' weed, then it won't be robust enough to be taken seriously?

And what about growing? I grew when I lived there, if that was post tourist ban, would I be allowed to do that?

What about the non dutch citizens who work in coffeeshops? I know at least four personally. Will they all be let go?

Unworkable, unpolicable. Pointless with too many grey areas.

They say it is to reduce drug related crime. They must mean in Germany.

puffthemagicdragon · Post by **puffthemagicdragon** » Fri 3rd Dec 2010 11:27 pm

I love the way they say it will reduce crime. It'll increase crime when buying weed gets pushed underground.

And realistically it's the drunks that cause most of the crime. Those of us smoking weed are too chilled out to be bothered causin crimes

Marco · Post by **Marco** » Fri 3rd Dec 2010 11:38 pm

westerkerk wrote:Sounds like a killer idea Boner and one they'd probably use if they were going down the national id card route rather than the club 'membership' card some people are on about.

My point was from a logistical POV which happens to be my area of expertise if you like, so once there was a go ahead with this they would still have to script up the id card chip with the various suppliers of EPOS software or tilling machines depending how they did it, have coffeeshops that don't have the 'ready' technology upgrade, beta test it, prove it is fit for purpose, then put a timescale/deadline on suppliers rolling out software updates to customers for this system to be fully implemented.

Remember how chip and pin was implemented in the first place. Trust me, I know a lot about that!!!! Bane of my life!

By the way, I too am just spitballing here, and I'm not trying to be pedantic about your post in any way, it's a valid option that for all i know could be already developed. All I am saying is whatever happens, however easy it may seem to implement, there will always be logistical reasons why it cannot happen overnight, and i was just reassuring the people who are worrying about upcoming trips, with my own experience and my own opinions, that it won't.

If the new government really want this to succeed in the long term it ain't going to be some lightweight system or procedure that they implement. It needs to be robust enough to stand up to the critics and innovative people. If it's not, we're laughing because it'll change nothing.

Considering my own knowledge of the Dutch gov's inability to implement IT systems (the police force basically has to scrap their new IT system and start over) plus the utter shitstorm it has taken to implement the OV Chipkart for public transport, I cannot imagine they will go the high-tech route for these membership cards, but who knows?

smokseyj · Post by **smokseyj** » Sat 4th Dec 2010 01:23 am

They will be loosing loads of potential income by making it members only, yet if they introduce IT systems it's going to cost them a load to implement.

j-smoker · Post by **j-smoker** » Sat 4th Dec 2010 03:18 am

im just back from amsterdam. spoke to a few bud dealers there about thiis. all said same thing. not going to happen in amsterdam. even if goverment say so.

LadyJane · Post by **LadyJane** » Sat 4th Dec 2010 03:19 am

Would the ban really be about fighting organized crime?

Of course banning tourists will lower demand, and thus have an affect on supply, but that won't change the fact that the criminal element is involved. The tourists are shooting people.