Dutch General Elections - Sept. 12, 2012 (updated poll)

[treetop]

While I really appreciate the SP's CS policy, the last thing Europe needs is more socialism.

In the spirit of democratic debate, I didn't think this should go unchallenged. So I'm challenging it on two counts: first, not sure western Europe has actually seen much socialism these last few years and second, the current crisis has nothing to do with socialism and a lot to do with the excessive influence of free market economics on European countries.

Go the cannabus!!

Don't take too much notice of Marco...hes American and they dont seem to have much idea of what Socialism is [/quote]

Hey bro...I also hold a French passport and voted..........Hollande, so please STFU!

I will amend my previous statement....the last thing NL needs is more socialism. I just would like to keep a small part of my paycheck sir.[/quote]

So more accurately the last thing YOU need is more Socialism in the NL

[nooris]

Party_________2010________Aug 17, 2012_______ Aug 24, 2012
=========================================
CDA___________21_____________14________________14
PvdA__________30_____________23_________________22
SP_____________15_____________29________________30
VVD___________31_____________35________________34
PVV___________24_____________18________________19
GL____________10______________4_________________5
CU____________5________________5________________6
D66__________10______________14________________14
PvdD__________2_______________3_________________3
SGP___________2_______________2_________________2
50+__________0________________2_________________1

*Source: http://www.ipsos-synovate.nl/content.asp?targetid=674


Does anyone know when the debate between the SP and VVD will take place?

[nooris]

@ notsofasteddie

Thanks for this great article. It also kind of confirms that even if the VVD ends up with more seats than the SP, the weitpas will still not pass through parliament. Fantastic!

[Marco]

So more accurately the last thing YOU need is more Socialism in the NL

Obviously. Do you pay taxes or otherwise participate in Dutch civil society?

[treetop]

So more accurately the last thing YOU need is more Socialism in the NL

Obviously. Do you pay taxes or otherwise participate in Dutch civil society?

Do I have to pay taxes and 'participate in Dutch civil society' (whatever that means) to have an opinion on this issue?

Let me see there is the City tax. The tax on items I buy in shops, bars and restaurants not to mention the taxes that the coffeeshops pay which are paid out from profits made on people like me who are prepared to travel to The Netherlands and pay top dollar for a range of products and services.

Higher taxes are a fact of life for living in Western Europe. Especially if you earn a high salary. It is called caring about each other. Something which is lacking in the USA to a bigger and bigger extent as the decades go by. It is a real shame cos the USA for all its faults used to be a caring country.

In America the political spectrum has shifted so far to the right that sharing a bag of popcorn is considered socialist. It is considered to be a dirty word unless it is used to bail out greedy and incompetant banks.

I totally understand where your point of view comes from Marco. I just find it morally repugnant.

For example 25 of the biggest corporations in the USA pay less tax than they pay their C.E.O.

Another stat I heard recently is on average the super rich in the USA pay about 1% of their income in taxes.

As a European I find that completely offensive. Hopefully I'm not alone and the Netherlands gets a left leaning coalition at the very least.

/end of rant.

[Colino]

So more accurately the last thing YOU need is more Socialism in the NL

Obviously. Do you pay taxes or otherwise participate in Dutch civil society?

Do I have to pay taxes and 'participate in Dutch civil society' (whatever that means) to have an opinion on this issue?

Let me see there is the City tax. The tax on items I buy in shops, bars and restaurants not to mention the taxes that the coffeeshops pay which are paid out from profits made on people like me who are prepared to travel to The Netherlands and pay top dollar for a range of products and services.

Higher taxes are a fact of life for living in Western Europe. Especially if you earn a high salary. It is called caring about each other. Something which is lacking in the USA to a bigger and bigger extent as the decades go by. It is a real shame cos the USA for all its faults used to be a caring country.

In America the political spectrum has shifted so far to the right that sharing a bag of popcorn is considered socialist. It is considered to be a dirty word unless it is used to bail out greedy and incompetant banks.

I totally understand where your point of view comes from Marco. I just find it morally repugnant.

For example 25 of the biggest corporations in the USA pay less tax than they pay their C.E.O.

Another stat I heard recently is on average the super rich in the USA pay about 1% of their income in taxes.

As a European I find that completely offensive. Hopefully I'm not alone and the Netherlands gets a left leaning coalition at the very least.

/end of rant.

I agree 100%

[Not_the_monk]

So do I, that's a great post.

I can understand people on 'normal' wages not wanting to pay more tax. I don't want to pay more tax. However, that is a very self-centred and restrictive basis upon which to decide who should be running a country. And if all you're really concerned about is your wallet, its not as if the more right wing, free market capitalism-focused politicians have made such a good fist of the global economy of late now is it?

Anyway, that article above is very encouraging.

[Marco]

So more accurately the last thing YOU need is more Socialism in the NL

Obviously. Do you pay taxes or otherwise participate in Dutch civil society?

Do I have to pay taxes and 'participate in Dutch civil society' (whatever that means) to have an opinion on this issue?

Let me see there is the City tax. The tax on items I buy in shops, bars and restaurants not to mention the taxes that the coffeeshops pay which are paid out from profits made on people like me who are prepared to travel to The Netherlands and pay top dollar for a range of products and services.

Higher taxes are a fact of life for living in Western Europe. Especially if you earn a high salary. It is called caring about each other. Something which is lacking in the USA to a bigger and bigger extent as the decades go by. It is a real shame cos the USA for all its faults used to be a caring country.

In America the political spectrum has shifted so far to the right that sharing a bag of popcorn is considered socialist. It is considered to be a dirty word unless it is used to bail out greedy and incompetant banks.

I totally understand where your point of view comes from Marco. I just find it morally repugnant.

For example 25 of the biggest corporations in the USA pay less tax than they pay their C.E.O.

Another stat I heard recently is on average the super rich in the USA pay about 1% of their income in taxes.

As a European I find that completely offensive. Hopefully I'm not alone and the Netherlands gets a left leaning coalition at the very least.

/end of rant.

Treetop, you need to get your facts straight on NL vs. USA. Despite your outliers, the corporate tax rate in NL is much lower than in the US (NL=26%, US=39%). There is a very high personal income tax in NL where the highest rate of 55% kicks in at only 52,000Eur (I cannot see how that is rich?). Also, NL (like all of Europe) has a VAT tax of 19%, a tax whose burden falls disproportionately on the poor). Add these three factors together, and in NL, it is the middle class worker who is subsiding corporations, not the other way around!

Have you ever tried to rend an apartment in Amsterdam? The market is completely skewed and unfair because 50% of the rental stock is 'forced' by the state to be ridiculously low for people 'making' less then 30k (plus they estimate 20%-30% of those in social housing are cheating because they make much more than the limit). This makes the remaining 50% astronomically high for the rest of us. This 'social housing' plan is largely a result of Pvda rule, and it is corrupt and unfair.

Finally, the healthcare system here is significantly more equitable than in the US, and I am happy about that. But it is a private system, and we pay for it through a monthly premium, in addition to high social security taxes.

My point is, that NL already has a great deal of taxation on the middle and working class. I have no problem in helping others, but at some level I am seriously wondering where all this taxation goes, especially if you compare the level of social services here to France or Germany.

[Marco]

So do I, that's a great post.

I can understand people on 'normal' wages not wanting to pay more tax. I don't want to pay more tax. However, that is a very self-centred and restrictive basis upon which to decide who should be running a country. And if all you're really concerned about is your wallet, its not as if the more right wing, free market capitalism-focused politicians have made such a good fist of the global economy of late now is it?

Anyway, that article above is very encouraging.

You raise a good point. However, I think the Dutch voter is much, much more concerned about his/her wallet (and other issues) rather than coffeeshops. Which was my point to begin with, as a resident here, I am concerned about CS legislation, but is certainly not my top concern. I can assume you, only a tiny percentage of Dutch voters choose a party based on cannabis legislation.

[Not_the_monk]

So do I, that's a great post.

I can understand people on 'normal' wages not wanting to pay more tax. I don't want to pay more tax. However, that is a very self-centred and restrictive basis upon which to decide who should be running a country. And if all you're really concerned about is your wallet, its not as if the more right wing, free market capitalism-focused politicians have made such a good fist of the global economy of late now is it?

Anyway, that article above is very encouraging.

You raise a good point. However, I think the Dutch voter is much, much more concerned about his/her wallet (and other issues) rather than coffeeshops. Which was my point to begin with, as a resident here, I am concerned about CS legislation, but is certainly not my top concern. I can assume you, only a tiny percentage of Dutch voters choose a party based on cannabis legislation.

Oh yeah, for sure cannabis legislation is going to be way down the list of concerns for the average Dutch voter, I totally get that and to be honest, so it should be, especially for those not directly effected (ie jobs threatened).

I would have thought it might be an interesting side issue for many though; it could have some economic impact of its own, and one would have thought that parties in favour of the weedpass might also turn out to be in favour of other restrictions of liberty etc.... but I expect in most countries, not just Holland, economic issues particularly will dominate elections for the foreseeable future.

[Marco]

Socialist are dropping fast....

SP falls sharply in poll
THE HAGUE - The SP is a significant decline in Wednesday's Mood current affairs EénVandaag. This poll by GfK agency is the party of Emile Roemer from 30 seats, 8 less than last week. The VVD also dropped, from 35 to 33 seats, but making it the largest party. In the last elections brought the SP 15 seats, the VVD 31.


SP leader Emile Roemer draws sackcloth after sharp losses seat. "In the debate with Rutte at RTL I have not done well," he admits to EénVandaag. Roemer says he is shocked by the loss of virtual office and looking at the error itself. "Since I tremble. Maybe I'm too nice unchanged. The next time I have to clarify what we stand for. I was beaten from the field. I was prepared for anything but not on politicians who flatly deny what is in their election. I have now had a lesson. "

The Labour Party also rises in poll EénVandaag. She gets 21 seats. That there are still 9 less than in the previous elections, but 4 more than a week ago. The PVV gets 18 seats, three more than last week, but 6 less than in the previous elections. D66 is 14 seats (4 more than in the previous elections), the CDA on 13 (9 less than in the previous elections), the Christian Union on 7 (plus 2 compared to the previous election), Green 4 (min 6) the SGP 3 (plus 1) and PvdD 3 (plus 1). 50plus would with 4 seats in the Chamber come.

The shifts appear due to the lijsttrekkersdebat RTL from Sunday. Labour leader Diederik Samsom was there as a winner. According to GfK loses SP 3 seats to the Labour Party and to PVV, 50plus and D66. The rest is distributed among other parties.

Mood EénVandaag is a standard method with particular attention to the floating voter. Respondents could give five votes to one or more parties. The survey is based on a sample of 12,500 respondents from becoming the GfK online panel. At each measurement has about half of the respondents to the questionnaire ingevul

[nooris]

The SP's 30 seats doesn't sound like a drop when compared to the IPSOS poll which had them at 29 seat on Aug. 17 and 30 seats on Aug. 24. The VVD still remain ahead in the 33-34 range.

While I would love for the SP to win outright, I think the new leftist parliament will not pass the weitpas law even if the VVD have the most seats. I just hope I'm right and that I'm not deluding myself with wishful thinking.

Does anyone know how many votes are needed to pass a law in the Tweede Kamer? Is it 76, or 100?

What about the Senate? How likely are they not to accept the law?

[radjew]

The senate is literally a 50/50 split along right/left lines in its current form. That's why the VVD had to do the deal with the fundy christians to gain a slim majority. In that the wietpas has been ear-marked to come into effect Jan 1st the senate have already rubber stamped it.

[Old Fart]

No matter what happens, Nol should be congratulated for fighting the good fight from the very beginning. There is always Spain.

[nooris]

I'm in Amsterdam now spending the weekend before I move to Maastricht. Yesterday while out and about I stumbled on the Cannabus in a square near De Oude Kerk. Everything was in Dutch, but surprisingly I understood some of the ideas discussed by the guy speaking (I don't know who he was, but he seemed like he might be a politician, apologies for my ignorance). There was a fairly large crowd of all ages and the atmosphere was fantastic. Many people were smoking (I quickly joined myself) and the weather was perfect.

With non existent Dutch skills, I think I understood parts of his speech when he was talking about the economic impact of the weitpas on Amsterdam. I can't remember the numbers he was giving, but they were massive. He said its not only the coffeeshop workers. He then mentioned Hotels, Van Gough, Anne Frank, Rembranthouse, and a slew of other attractions in the city, which I think he was saying would also suffer heavily. He also mentioned crime and police, and I heard a few references to Limburg when he was talking about police.

Sorry for the lack of depth, but I did the best I could with no Dutch. All in all, the mood in the crowd seemed upbeat. I was talking with an older dutch lady who said she did not expect the ban to go into effect. She was optimistic the new parliament will overturn it.