Dutch General Elections - Sept. 12, 2012 (updated poll)

[sensismiler]

I like you man.. YOu've seen a problem and you've put thought into a solution. It may not be THE solution but there's not many other people on here with any kind of fight for the cause in them. To some people it may be a 'shit' idea but I don't see many others being put out there. As has been said before, sitting back and letting the wietpass happen is exactly what the Dutch government want us to do..

Any resistance is good resistance

Actually we don't know what the Dutch government wants to do with it yet. We won't know that until a coalition is formally announced and they have formulated their policy regarding it. I think political pressure and consultation via industry heavyweights is a far better way to achieve a lasting solution than half baked ideas such as fundraisers to purchase real estate with no guarantee thar doing so would have any effect at all...and if you're prepared to pay double for something that's already vastly overpriced...anyway good luck with Weedaid, if you get any decent bands to play I might just come along.

And by the way, disagreeing with your approach doesn't mean I am either too tight or too skint to afford to buy my own smoke.

I think your just being a dick for the sake of it. I never ever said this was to solve the weed pass problem, or that I even think it will have any effect.. Just that it is AN idea focused on shitting on the weed pass plans, and that I haven't heard many other ideas. That is all. Yes, it is a half baked idea but that's how all ideas start out. I'm not claiming to know every in and out of the situation politically, but the law has been written so it needs fighting against. If nobody opposes it, it will probably happen. You are correct that political pressure is the way to go but as a British citizen I really have no say on those matters. I don't know where this whole paying double thing has come from? He's talking about raising funds to keep a place open.. like a few euros. Not thousands

Please get high(er) and lose the shitty undertone to your message.. We all want the same result after all. Have a nice evening

[Smirks]

I like you man.. YOu've seen a problem and you've put thought into a solution. It may not be THE solution but there's not many other people on here with any kind of fight for the cause in them. To some people it may be a 'shit' idea but I don't see many others being put out there. As has been said before, sitting back and letting the wietpass happen is exactly what the Dutch government want us to do..

Any resistance is good resistance

Actually we don't know what the Dutch government wants to do with it yet. We won't know that until a coalition is formally announced and they have formulated their policy regarding it. I think political pressure and consultation via industry heavyweights is a far better way to achieve a lasting solution than half baked ideas such as fundraisers to purchase real estate with no guarantee thar doing so would have any effect at all...and if you're prepared to pay double for something that's already vastly overpriced...anyway good luck with Weedaid, if you get any decent bands to play I might just come along.

And by the way, disagreeing with your approach doesn't mean I am either too tight or too skint to afford to buy my own smoke.

i'm sorry if offended you,however, i can't really understand how 3 or 4 euros for a donation is something you would think unreasonable. i can't imagine that you are for the coffeeshops footprint being bought up and replaced with starbucks and other businesses already represented in spades. i assumed since you would agree that the coffeeshops should stay around that it must be an economic consideration. or i was trying to demonstrate how silly that particular objection was. it would ,also, help if like marco you actually demonstrated how it would be difficult or unworkable. so far you have just said it sucks with no justification and been a tad insulting in doing so.i am sorry, if the impoverished comment offended you. i retract it. and again what the heck is with this pay double shit. when did i say we should pay double for our weed. i'm talking a small donation of 3 or 4 euros from possibly 5 or ten percent of stoners in developed countries. ,money from concerts and souvenirs and bigger donations from some sympathetic fat cats.

It's not about the money, what you are suggesting is the wrong approach. Legislative shifts across the globe are the solution. Of course I want to continue to be able to visit Netherlands for the coffeeshops, hell I was there protesting against it at 420 this year, but other countries are making steps in the right direction and I am hopeful that the next decade will bring about significant global changes to cannabis laws. If the political solution in Netherlands fails, then it's time for a rethink, but I'm not going to waste my time at this particular juncture to point out the many obvious flaws in your suggestion. It's good to have ideas, but don't marry yourself to a bad one. Buy some better stuff, have a smoke, put your thinking cap on and I'm sure you'll come up with a much better idea.

[piedpiperofvice]

ok..protesting at 420 was exactly what i'll admit i was kind of dickish and dismissive about, myself..like you are kind of being about my idea. the 420 protest may have pulled in a couple important votes but not enough to get labor over the top. maybe it shifted some from labor to the socialist which would have been bad for the coffeeshops.either way it did not necessarily work(if coffeeshops survive through some compromise between the parties necessitated by the strong labor showing i will give props) . and as cisco pointed out long ago it does create a bit of a mess in the city causing some delays in peoples everyday routine. so in this way the opponents can say see what a nuisance these coffeeshop folks can be. congestion.blah blah bs bs bs. i don't think the noble effort really changed enough hearts and minds and might have aliented some pissed off commuters.

and to suggest to go through the legislative routes is the best method is wrong in my opinion. of course you try those routes but isn't government really driven by money. i doubt many in the homeless community and low rent districts have a great seat at the table. money can influence government ,obviously.and yes one man one vote but as a minority you might never get the votes and i think a basic civil liberty to control your own consciousness should not be contingent on my neighbors approval

and i think it is a little dismissive of you to, without putting forth your argument, mock my idea and suggest i go back and try again to find a another you can dismiss out of hand..but honestly we are good from my end. it is only a forum and everybody has their opinion. my ego is sturdy enough to take a flogging from smirks and the whole forum for that matter. have a good day,smirks

[Smirks]

I believe cannabis should be legal, wherever we live. It is our right to smoke it in private in our own homes and should also be in permitting establishments, where we should also be allowed to purchase it, legally. It does or at least should not require property ownership to achieve a legislative shift that would enable this to happen.

I enjoy the liberties we have been afforded in Netherlands and of course want this to continue but I'm far more interested in ending prohibition globally. It is this that I am referring to when I say I prefer there to be political solutions, legislative changes. Whether 420 protests are effective or not, it was a chance for me to express my opinion through participation. I thoroughly enjoyed it, as I have done on all the pro cannabis marches and events that I have attended, but for sure they are only very small personal contributions. Legal changes will only happen when there is a critical mass of public opinion in favour of it. Every event that helps to increase awareness and gain more supporters for legalization, the better, no matter how small.

It is in this kind of way that we can all help to do our bit to achieve and end to prohibition in our lifetime...or we can spew shite on Internet forums about benefit gigs for coffeeshop owners, far fetched ideas with no clear goal other than some materialistically centered idea that the authorities would suddenly bow to an uberlandlord of coffeeshops, but who only really has a few hundred small sized premises. Yeah let's get Geldof on the phone to help with this one. A concert to protest yes, a concert to raise awareness yes, a concert to raise money to buy property to ensure that the retailers in just one country might have marginally increased economic bargaining power to perhaps persuade authorities to leave them open...I don't think so.

So yes you are deluded if you seriously think this merits any further serious discussion.

[TwoCanucks]

not giving a penny to any coffeeshop owner without receiving something marijuana related in return.

[Veggie]

Although I do not agree with the negative tone or the names I think smirks is right....not really a practical idea.............

And I agree with twocanucks too...isn't that why we pay 12 and 15 plus euros a gram for weed they prob pay 3 or. 4 euros a gram for.....( so they make money)




Peace and love

[Marco]

marco, speaking of economic realities , i have read that the dutch have some or the highest mortgage burdens in the eu. surely, that would put some building owners in a position to seek a sale of their properties. i am not sure how many buildings that house coffeeshops share this burden ,obviously

That is residential. My point before about real estate is that it is extremely complicated in Amsterdam especially, and simply buying a building is often not even possible.

[piedpiperofvice]

interesting article about the 1012 project. notice it says the city is buying up buildings that rent to coffeeshops and sex related places. i guess the opposition likes that idea. i guess they understand that if they own the real estate things will go a lot easier..and smirks to get some marginal bargaining power would not be a bad thing. as YOU say ..every little bit helps.

[Smirks]

interesting article about the 1012 project. notice it says the city is buying up buildings that rent to coffeeshops and sex related places. i guess the opposition likes that idea. i guess they understand that if they own the real estate things will go a lot easier..and smirks to get some marginal bargaining power would not be a bad thing. as YOU say ..every little bit helps.

Every bit helps, just no fucking benefit concerts please.

[oufc.sturdy]

dont get me wrong amsterdam is a nice city but im only going to go if i can go into the shops myself an buy the weed myself its having the freedom to do this that takes me to the dam..... i love dam but they are taking away the heart of it for most, just my opinion

[treetop]

dont get me wrong amsterdam is a nice city but im only going to go if i can go into the shops myself an buy the weed myself its having the freedom to do this that takes me to the dam..... i love dam but they are taking away the heart of it for most, just my opinion

Same here. I'm going there to enjoy the coffeeshop culture not scurry about making shady street deals with god knows who that could lead to god knows what. Whilst many wise heads are already saying the wietpas will never happen in Amsterdam there has been no official change to the law which will come into force on Jan 1st 2013.
Either the new government will make some kind of announcement or the law will come in nationally as planned. As I understand the system there are enough people all over the country in favor of the wietpas to put in the necessary complaints to have non complying shops closed down even in amsterdam.

As I understand it the process in place for the enforcement of a law in Holland is pretty comprehensive. If it all ends up being sorted out by the judicial system what chance do the coffeeshops have when they are the ones flouting the law. Surely it is not the business of the judicial system to decide whether the law is barmy or not. Just to make sure it is properly enforced.

I hope for a bright future but am not making any travel plans for 2013 just yet.

[john quays]

Good post Treetop, nicely back on topic.

So yeah, the VVD and PvDA are negotiating with a view to forming a coalition, possibly with a third party. In these negotiations will fall the question of the regulation of coffeeshops. The VVD supported the wietpas, the PvDA didn't. As some have previously said in this thread, the future of the coffeeshops isn't a massive subject on the scale of things in Dutch internal politics.

It all depends on the horse trading currently going on. Will coffeeshops be part of the concessions made by the centre-right VVD or not? Will a third party be brought in and if so, will it be a right-wing one (CDA/PVV) or an anti-wietpas one (D66/SP)?

10 days or so now since the elections, negotiations have taken up to 200 days in previous election years...

What we need is the inside track from anyone with their ear to the ground.

[oufc.sturdy]

an the sooner the better.......

[doctordude]

According to dutchnews.nl it's not looking good:

Both parties want to draw up an agreement that sketches general strategy and positions but which allows individual ministers to develop detailed policies.

and unfortunately:

The FD says VVD ministers Ivo Opstelten (justice), (...) are likely to return to the cabinet.

Thus putting an pro-Wietpas minister in the decisive position. And given the fact that the Wietpas concerns mainly non-voters I couldn't even blame the PvdA for giving up their position. Fighting makes no political sense whatsoever

My bet: they ease up on the part that concerns the Dutch, like no longer requiring a registration and customer-lists at the shop and that's that Wait and see. Most stressful foreign elections EVER

[oufc.sturdy]

i just want to know asap whats going on i like alot of others want to start booking for next year . i do have a month off in december this year so im going to have to squeeze another trip in for sure what ever happens