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I think you're confusing me with someone who has a sided opinion Mover. I don't. I don't believe either side of the arguement at this stage regardless of how plausible either is... I'm keeping an open mind which more than just myself could benefit from.

All I tried to do above was offer both sides of the arguement, whereas you clearly are playing just one side... which is completely above board in my eyes, everyone is entitled to their views!

I'm not really debating anything, just throwing info out there for those who want to read it... also I find your statement of tit-for-tat argueing a little bemusing... I wasn't aware this was a (as you say) tit-for-tat internet arguement. I think you're being a little defensive there... sit back in the sack and burn one pal, destress a little - not everyone on the internet is looking for a scrap

One last point though, "The New Zealand Climate Science Coallition" ... please forgive me for thinking this had anything to do with NZ

Well,sorry mover I did not know the the "real" scientists had it all figured out.Funny how you can know so much about people just by knowing what side of a debate they are on.Seems odd that you would be on a site about smoking,(adds to greenhouse gases) and traveling to Amsterdam(contribues tons of greenhouse gases),all while wasting electricity on the computer.Seems kind of hypocritical to me.Maybe your like Al Gore, everyone else must change the way they live,so he can continue his lavish lifestyle.What do I know,I'm just a right wing shrill off to cash my check from "Big Oil".I'm glad that no one in the Global Warming camp is making money off this,those billions and billions of dollars of research grants can't possible influence "real" scientists.

You don't have look to hard to somethings up. In the high country where I go the snow is gone. It used to be there 20-30 years ago.

pan4gold49 wrote:You don't have look to hard to somethings up. In the high country where I go the snow is gone. It used to be there 20-30 years ago.

I'm not trying to deny that things are changing.The Earth is always changing.The Ice age covered large portions of the planet in ice.Those fossils you like to collect,many of them out there are sea creatures from a giant inland sea that obviously is no longer there.The continents were more than likely all connected at one point.The Earth is in a constant state of change.It is always warming or cooling.Even the poles are changing,the north and south poles are changing thier polarity.Things are changing,the question is what role man has in all of this.To me,it seems a bit foolish to take 100 or 200 years of weather history,a fraction of a nano-second in the Earth's history,and try to extrapalate the future from it.Like I said,I'm willing to admit that I could be wrong.I'm open to any ideas,I enjoy learning new things.Back in the 70's,the consensus was of the coming Ice Age,now it's global warming.Only time will time for sure.

I think that i a since you are correct Philly, but I think that there are ways that we have contributed to the speeding up of this process. The ice age will come after the global warming is done.
I also think that no matter how much the rest of the world has contributed in the past 150 years China has done as much damage in the past 15 years and doesn't care and has no intention of slowing it down.

http://www.oregonlive.com/news/oregonia ... xml&coll=7

http://www.nowpublic.com/on_the_monorai ... y_shenzhen__

http://www.nowpublic.com/smog____________

http://www.nowpublic.com/no_drunken_dri ... gn_beijing__

http://www.nowpublic.com/hazy_shanghai__

anyway you get the idea

A trip to the North Pole to highlight global warming had to be cut short because of.... extreme cold.http://www.twincities.com/mld/twincitie ... 887788.htm

mover, first of all I dont argue. If there is one thing I have learned in life, is that you cant open a closed mind. With that said, everyone is entitled to their opinions. As far was global warming goes, no one stands to benefit from this like big tobacco does from thier smoking war. It is a fact, you dont need big scientist to tell you things are changing. Floods, hurricaines, tornados, ect ect, are all way worst then they used to be. I live in a city that used to dumped tons of snow every winter. I havent really seen a bad winter in years now. Its a factual observation that from the sounds of others posts, other people notice also. Once again, no arguement, I just dont know where you think someone is benefiting from this potential disaster, like big tabacco did with cigs. peace

China has done as much damage in the past 15 years and doesn't care and has no intention of slowing it down.

and why do they pollute..... making cheap shit for us AMERICANS.....and why won't we force them into cleaning up?? cause they are making CHEAP shit for us.

its a viscous cycle no doubt

Is it global warming? Is it natural climate change?

The one thing I know for sure is that nobody can be sure.... not 100%.

I happen to think it's a little from column A and a little from Column B.

El Ninho has had a huge effect on the worlds weather and climate.... we have also pumped huge amounts of greenhouse gas into our atmosphere... but by far the most effective greenhouse gas is methane, which is currently being released from the ice that is melting at each pole.

China and India are indeed major poluters in the modern world, as are the USA and Western Europe..... the fact the USA didn't sign to Kyoto tells you one story.

However, after not caring what we have done for 200 years what sort of hypocrites would we be to tell China how to run their economy and industry.... sure we can advise them.... but what's their incentive to stop? At what cost financially would it come? That's their bottom line.

So there's no snow? Well take a look at the records..... in the UK it's only the warmest winter in 50 years or so...... that means that 50 years ago it was warmer..... I don't seem to remember a mass panic then.....

One thing that's for sure.... the human race is ingenious at two things, survival and killing each other..... we'll continue to find a way to do both for a considerable time yet........

mazdog wrote:

China has done as much damage in the past 15 years and doesn't care and has no intention of slowing it down.

and why do they pollute..... making cheap shit for us AMERICANS.....and why won't we force them into cleaning up?? cause they are making CHEAP shit for us.

The main reason that I can think of that we don't force them to clean up is that they are a communistic sovereign nation that would kick our ass if we tried. PS they sell their crap to more than just the USA.

and why do they pollute..... making cheap shit for us AMERICANS.....and why won't we force them into cleaning up?? cause they are making CHEAP shit for us.

The Chinese,pop.1.3+ billion people,are the main reason for thier polution.The crap products that China makes are available in all most every country in the world,not just America.

/\/\/\

sure....the point i'm trying to make is that without outside influences (westerners, in general, wanting more for less) the current 'industrial revolution' in China would not be happening....sure they'd still be polluting and overpopuated but they would have the funding.

change can be made, slow as it may seem. The EU has some clout and the rest of the world better sit up and take notice. http://www.truthout.org/issues_06/030907EB.shtml

AzLaker

Here is a New York Times article about Al Gore "... cool the hype"http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/13/scien ... ref=slogin