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How many people have been beaten up or killed by someone actually ON crack/heroin...no one at all I wouldn't think

Maybe in the UK, but cocaine and heroin aren't exactly glamorous things here across the pond. The homeless, the poor, the ghettodwellers, turning tricks on a street corner, shooting up heroin and stabbing a guy for looking at him funny. Drug fueled gang wars, doped up junkies shooting people for the thrill of it. These drugs aren't nearly as harmless as you make them sound.

That's bad enough, let alone the toxicity of these drugs. Thousands of overdoses per year in America alone.

As for a decrease in robberies/murders by those who want the victim's drugs, well, I doubt it. There's people who will stab a guy for his fucking cigarettes.

DrGonzo wrote:711 I don't get you.

Your drug of choice is weed, but you would actively support the removal of this choice for others, just because of your "Opinion". I'd get some real life experience before making bold statements of that nature.

Just think of it from your governments point of view, Cigarette and Alcohol tax dollars make up a huge proportion of the revenue they recieve, where else would this come from? Your wage? It has to come from somewhere.

Heroin at least in it's clinical form is entirely manageable, people perform day to day tasks quite well..... there are many state sponsored addicts who've used Morphine as a pain killer and become hooked, they have entirley normal lives.

Cocaine whilst expensive has less effects on the body than almost every other rec drug. It even improves certain motor functions. Drivers tested in an article in Mixmag actually improved after a quick line.

I just find it hypocritical that you are such an advocate of your vice but everyone elses are wrong.

I don't mean to be an authorative figure in any such debate, but from the sum of my knowledge and experience^1, cannabis simply isn't nearly as dangerous as most everything else out there that's being "abused". I can't count on my fingers the number of people I know/knew who's lives been been advesrely affected or even completely destroyed by these substances.

-Tobacco kills hundreds of thousand of people per year in my country, it's addictive and costly, and our governments exploit that to pay for their wars and campaigns. ^2
-Alcohol kills tens of thousands of people either directly or indirectly. It's ruined my father's life, my uncle's life, my grandfather's life, and negatively affected just about all of my family^3
-Stimulants like coke and heroin result in thousands of overdose deaths per year, and thousands more dependancies that ruin the lives of those affected.^4 Not to mention the violent deaths of others caused my these drugs. ^5


^1 (which I make no claim to have either in great quantity)
^2 Far too many mmbers of my immediate family either died of, or are dying from smoking tobacco in great excess. Even worse they died poor, because their addiction was costing them all of their money.
^3 My father is a schizophrenic, manic depressive, bi-polar man who as a result of his alcoholism (which he has his own father to thank for mostly), suffered from numerous violent outbursts, eventually resulting in his own institutionalization
^4 A good friend of mine, someone I'd known from first grade became addicted to crack-cocaine and became a prostitute at the age of 14 to pay for her addiction. I've not seen or spoken to her in 2 years, and she might very well be dead.
^5 One of my best friends' older sister was murdered in her car one night by some cokehead as part of some sick sport. She was later admitted to a mental institution for several attempts at her own life


On top of all this, I've not heard firsthand a single negative report about cannabis, except for those who's freedoms had been stripped because of (what I view as) an unjust prohibition against cannabis. The lethal dose of THC is simply unattainable.

It's true, I'm young, I've hardly lived any of my life. I might not even know the full truth behind what I'm talking about, but what I do know certainly seems to be enough to make a decision. So please don't bite my head off until you've heard my rationalization for my argument.

EDIT:

I just find it hypocritical that you are such an advocate of your vice but everyone elses are wrong.

I don't advocate cannabis because it's what I liked the effects of best out of all the world has to offer. I do so because it's infinately safer and less consequential to use than most everything else.

711 wrote:

How many people have been beaten up or killed by someone actually ON crack/heroin...no one at all I wouldn't think

Maybe in the UK, but cocaine and heroin aren't exactly glamorous things here across the pond. The homeless, the poor, the ghettodwellers, turning tricks on a street corner, shooting up heroin and stabbing a guy for looking at him funny. Drug fueled gang wars, doped up junkies shooting people for the thrill of it. These drugs aren't nearly as harmless as you make them sound.

That's bad enough, let alone the toxicity of these drugs. Thousands of overdoses per year in America alone.

As for a decrease in robberies/murders by those who want the victim's drugs, well, I doubt it. There's people who will stab a guy for his fucking cigarettes.

Im sorry 711 but I disagree entirely, your post is taken straight from a Newspaper or TV news report. People ON drugs are not violent and do not attack people and participate in gang violence. Don't believe the hype.

Quick Edit: As I stated overdosing on drugs is entriely the fault of prohibition as content cannot be controlled.

Rev wrote:As I stated overdosing on drugs is entriely the fault of prohibition as content cannot be controlled.

As is CLEARLY evidenced by the low rate of alcohol poisoning and smoking induced cancers!
(I apologize for the sarcasm.)

Dr. Gonzo do you understand this is a pro-cannabis forum If you dont like weed stop complaining and leave, we do not care to share your left field opinion, you are rupping my fellow stoners the wrong way pal. You can compare cocaine and heroin to weed but if you do the research you can grow opium popies, and buy coca leaves of the internet legally. When you refine any plant material with gasoline and other dangerous chemicals I would make the shit illegal too, I dont think you really understand why cocaine is illegal, take a look at a recipe and see if you put anymore of that up your nose. Opium is used as a derevitave to make cancer patient medication and you still dont know why smoking opium is illegal do you. Well here goes, opium doesnt keep you high as long as Cannabis but it gets you higher, so you get far more addicted and have to smoke far more opium, meaning people who are addicted to opium just smoke it all day and do nothing else. smokeable opium is illegal opiates meds derived from. If you have done cocaine you know why it should be illegal, when I smoke weed at least I can sleep at night. You CAN NOT compare weed to plants wich are refined to get you high, do you have any idea of how many pounds of coca leaves make 1g, I read its around a lb.
Heroin makes people too high they black out while smoking it you ever seen Methadonia on HBO? Anyone who compares weed to heroin an cocaine needs a brain transplant, I mean that in every sence of the term.

[/quote]Quick Edit: As I stated overdosing on drugs is entriely the fault of prohibition as content cannot be controlled.[quote]

I disagree with you a little but not entirely, When you overdose you know you are taking the chemicals to an extreme, trying to get more high than ever before. Also people dont just do a 12in line of coke to start with, and then do smaller ones. they start small, start doing more when their tolerence rises, and this repeats until there tolerance is their body's maximum limit, wich is an overdose(Ive seen it). I agree with 711 statement

"Tobacco kills hundreds of thousand of people per year in my country, it's addictive and costly, and our governments exploit that to pay for their wars and campaigns. ^2
-Alcohol kills tens of thousands of people either directly or indirectly. It's ruined my father's life, my uncle's life, my grandfather's life, and negatively affected just about all of my family^3
-Stimulants like coke and heroin result in thousands of overdose deaths per year, and thousands more dependancies that ruin the lives of those affected.^4 Not to mention the violent deaths of others caused my these drugs. ^5"

711 thats right on the money

711 wrote:

Rev wrote:As I stated overdosing on drugs is entriely the fault of prohibition as content cannot be controlled.

As is CLEARLY evidenced by the low rate of alcohol poisoning and smoking induced cancers!
(I apologize for the sarcasm.)

Pure Diamorphine (Heroin..) is probably the safest drug going, apart from being highly addictive. Read up then argue cos' I'm afraid at the moment your looking a little silly.

Edit as I didn't see all the stuff posted afterwards...

On a slightly personal note Ameriskunk I think that it's you who is rubbing people up the wrong way if anyone, snide comments and ill researched post here and there.

I think heroin and coke are most comparable to Nicotine (apart from the fact nicotine kills tens of thousands more people each year) A smoker doesn't constantly increase their dosage, people smoke 20 cigarettes a day for 50 years. Many studies (and by studies I mean Independant studies not D.E.A/FBI paid for bullshit) have shown someone addicted to Heroin will live their normal lifespan as a productive (i.e fulltime job, kids etc) member of society as long as they can have access to as much (or little, peoples threshholds differ and can be found safely) pure heroin as they need. Cocaine I agree can be physically and mentally dangerous but only on the same level as alcohol at the most. Make them all legal, stop the bs!

double post must be the drugs

We are wrong to blame the drug for what has happened to poeple or what they have done as a result og taking drugs. I have used several drugs on their own, mixed together and both with/without alcohol. I can see the down side of drug use but on the whole I choose a particular drug for its positive effects, any shit that comes with it is part of the whole package. I've seen friends waste money and thier health through missuse of drugs. I don't blame the drugs, I blame the weak willed person who knew the rules of the game they were playing.

AmeriSkunk wrote:people dont just do a 12in line of coke to start with, and then do smaller ones. they start small, start doing more when their tolerence rises, and this repeats until there tolerance is their body's maximum limit, wich is an overdose(Ive seen it). I agree with 711 statement

I don't know what source you have for this statement...but for me, no matter what drug I'm taking I want to feel the full effect from the start, I wouldn't get in a supercar and drive slowly from 0 - 200mph... I'de get in and floor it all the way... 12inches might be slightly too much but I start big, stay big... and get smaller but more frequent to keep the high

as regards OD, I always though that if you OD'd you was trying to kill yourself...? I constantly consume more and more when on a session with a search for an even bigger high or heavier stone.

I blame the weak willed person who knew the rules of the game they were playing.

EXACTLY

I don't really wanna get too involved in this whole diatribe.
Almost everyone here is an adult and can ans shoyld make their own decisions and be responsible for thier own actions.

Having said that, 711 and Ameriskunk, you guys need to chill, and just bring your whole vibe down a notch or two. I have been biting my tongue but i can no longer. Both you guys are young and "very american" and it shows!!! Not saying you can't say whatever they hell you want, just saying that ALOT of the stuff you two have been saying is coming off very uppity and has a holier than thou kinda feel to it. The statement to DrG about rubbing the board memebers the wrong way couldn't be farther from the truth. You need to show the long time contributing memebers of this site the respect they deserve. Both DrG and Rev are intelligent respectful contributing memebers who seem to have been sucked into this bickering.
Also Rev and DrG live in other parts of the world where things are handled differently (some for the better and maybe some for the worse), so instead of immediately saying they are wrong maybe look at what they have to say from a different/non-american point of view.....you just might learn something and you certianly will be a better person for it.

Now, lets all smoke a joint and relize that we are coming from different places with different cultures and different beliefs (none of which are 100% correct all the time) and celebrate the one thing we SHOULD all be able to agree on ; AMSTERDAM ROCKS!!!

I'm sorry, Rev, your logic is just nonsensical to me. There's far too many counterarguments to even begin to fully repudiate your posts, but I'll give it a shot.

Cocaine I agree can be physically and mentally dangerous but only on the same level as alcohol at the most. Make them all legal, stop the bs!

You speak of alcohol as if it's old milk or a moldy slice of bread. Alcohol is far more dangerous than you give it credit for, and not only is it deadly, but it tears families apart and ruins lives.

Im sorry 711 but I disagree entirely, your post is taken straight from a Newspaper or TV news report. People ON drugs are not violent and do not attack people and participate in gang violence. Don't believe the hype.

I'm sorry, but you are either living in a different world, or completely ignorant to the world around you. Cocaine and speed are not only both physically and psychologically addictive, but are dangerous stimulants which cloud judgement and can easily lead to violent behavior in the right person or environment.

Many studies (and by studies I mean Independant studies not D.E.A/FBI paid for bullshit) have shown someone addicted to Heroin will live their normal lifespan as a productive (i.e fulltime job, kids etc) member of society as long as they can have access to as much (or little, peoples threshholds differ and can be found safely) pure heroin as they need.

Pay close attention to the phrase "as long as they can have access to as much ... pure heroin as they need." It's unrealistic to think that if legalized it would be affordable to every junkie who wants some. If anything, legalisation would lead to more addicts, and thusly more addicts who can't afford their habit, and thusly more drug related crime.

A smoker doesn't constantly increase their dosage, people smoke 20 cigarettes a day for 50 years

Flawed thinking. Smoker's don't start out with a pack a day. They smoke one cigarette first. Then as their tolerance builds, they smoke more and more until they're satisfied, or can't pay for it any more.

I think heroin and coke are most comparable to Nicotine (apart from the fact nicotine kills tens of thousands more people each year)

Think about what you just wrote here. Heroin and coke do't kill as many people because it's not as readily available. Every gas station and grocery store sells cigarettes, anyone can get them. Yes, anyone. If you could get package of cocaine with your slim jim like you can cigarettes, the death tolls would be right up there with alcohol and cigarettes.

And as earlier with alcohol, you're trivialising the danger of tobacco. There's over 400,000 smoking related deaths every year in the US alone. Over 100,000 in the UK. Sure, those numbers include deaths from the method of use, but it would be just the same with heroin or coke. Shared needles spreading infection and disease, smoked crack causing it's many health problems...

I've seen friends waste money and thier health through missuse of drugs. I don't blame the drugs, I blame the weak willed person who knew the rules of the game they were playing.

As I've seen hundreds of people waste their money and health on alcohol to the point of driving themselves out onto the streets and out of work. Imagine how much more miserable the world would be if all of these deadly addictive substances were marketed by our governments to anyone wishing to throw their life away.

There's just so many reasons to make and keep illegal all of these dangerous and addictive substances and so few to make or keep them legal.

But back to the real topic here, cannabis. Cannabis is not habit forming, it's not addictive, it's not violence-inducing, it's just not dangerous compared to other "drugs". In fact, I think it pure misfortune that it's even lumped in with disgusting things like cocaine and mdma in the first place. There's a thousand other plants out there that could just as easily be in cannabis' place today, but aren't simply because they haven't recieved the attention cannabis has.

I don't advocate cannabis and denounce all "other drugs" because I'm egotistical or a hyprocrit, but because cannabis just isn't the same thing. It's no more dangerous than friggin sugar, if used properly, and we consume that daily. And on the subject, sugar intake kills a multitude more people than cannabis intake!

one last thing.....

IMO the bottomline and point that DrG and Rev are getting at is this;

EVERYONE should have the freedom to ingest whatever they want, regardless of the consequences to themselves. For you me or anyone to come along and say 'well you can take this and that and that but ohhh nooo you can't have this and this' is completely ridiculous.

mazdog wrote:

I blame the weak willed person who knew the rules of the game they were playing.

EXACTLY

I don't really wanna get too involved in this whole diatribe.
Almost everyone here is an adult and can ans shoyld make their own decisions and be responsible for thier own actions.

Having said that, 711 and Ameriskunk, you guys need to chill, and just bring your whole vibe down a notch or two. I have been biting my tongue but i can no longer. Both you guys are young and "very american" and it shows!!! Not saying you can't say whatever they hell you want, just saying that ALOT of the stuff you two have been saying is coming off very uppity and has a holier than thou kinda feel to it. The statement to DrG about rubbing the board memebers the wrong way couldn't be farther from the truth. You need to show the long time contributing memebers of this site the respect they deserve. Both DrG and Rev are intelligent respectful contributing memebers who seem to have been sucked into this bickering.
Also Rev and DrG live in other parts of the world where things are handled differently (some for the better and maybe some for the worse), so instead of immediately saying they are wrong maybe look at what they have to say from a different/non-american point of view.....you just might learn something and you certianly will be a better person for it.

Now, lets all smoke a joint and relize that we are coming from different places with different cultures and different beliefs (none of which are 100% correct all the time) and celebrate the one thing we SHOULD all be able to agree on ; AMSTERDAM ROCKS!!!

I blame it on thread resurrection. It's a dangerous game with serious consequences.

But in all seriousness, I'm sorry if I come off as brash. I don't really think there's anything else I can say.

EDIT:

mazdog wrote:one last thing.....

IMO the bottomline and point that DrG and Rev are getting at is this;

EVERYONE should have the freedom to ingest whatever they want, regardless of the consequences to themselves. For you me or anyone to come along and say 'well you can take this and that and that but ohhh nooo you can't have this and this' is completely ridiculous.

I'm sorry to keep the argument going after your post, I really am, but it's not just about you. It's not just about one man and what he wants to do to himself.

It's about the substance, and how it's use affects the public at large. Take for example alcohol. Sure, if you drink too much, it'll kill you. But when you're drunk, you're a danger to others. Thousands are killed every year by drunk drivers, thousands of women are beaten by their drunk husbands, thousands of children are left parentless because of an accident involving drunk driving. Or another example, tobacco. Unborn babies develop birth defects or even die as the result of secondhand smoke, or the mother smoking. The baby hadn't even had a chance at life yet, and his or her fate is already being decided by another individual. Is that right in your eyes?

You say everyone "should have the freedom to ingest whatever they want, regardless of the consequences to themselves." It just isn't that simple. the consequences aren't limited to just the individual.

lol last post, it's gettin a bit childish

If your so concerened about fkin alcohol and tobacco the lets make those illegal aswell..prohibition of booze in the states worked wonderfully last time didn't it.

Rev

I love the way that reasoned argument goes out of the window in these sort of discussions.

And I hate the "this is my view so you are wrong" accusations levelled at me and others in this thread.

Ameriskunk... you can kiss my ass. Seriously.