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Thanks Trichome. It's a very interesting topic indeed. I really feel like I'm getting real insight into aspects of current European life when reading these titles. I'm an American atheist, but still find these books immensely interesting.

Sir Niall, your suggestion seems like a really interesting tome, but expensive! I also noticed it was out in 2006 yet still hasn't has a paperback printing. Is this a college textbook by chance?

Check out the pre-owned and paperback editions much better prices, just over twenty quid. Its a text recommended to me by an old politics lecuturer, im going to be using large parts of it for a PHD as well man. I found it very good.

d3lt4-9 wrote:Just finished "Londonistan" by Melanie Phillips. Eloquent, if not a bit paranoid.

You might also be interested in 'Tents and Pyramids' by Fuad I Khuri. It's a study of Arabic culture and thinking and how this intertwines with Islam. Very interesting, only 1/2 way through right now, mainly due to the fact that I have to keep stopping and thinking about what I've just read. When a book takes me ages, it's usually 'cos it's good, not because it's bad. If it's bad, I put it straight down again - or recycle in a book club.

Very good reasoning as to why Democracy won't work in the Middle East.

just finished 'the book theif' by Marcus Zusak

it was amazing. fiction, but so well written.

story of a little girl, during war time germany and her life, friends and feelings.... but the whole stroy is narrated by death who watches her life unfold.

sounds odd, but works so well.

HasAnyoneSeenMyPipe wrote:The thing about books on the troubles is that you will find very few will not be biased towards one side, being a Northern ireland Catholic myself I have read a few on each side and found them to be very biased, thank God I have never took anything to do with that sectarianism in NI ( I marry a lovely Presbyterian girl next July) as IMO people who are sectarian are the lowest common denominator, total non-entities who do society no good at all. And the sooner it is rubbed out the better for all Ireland and The UK.
Well said DC, the troubles were never a war, just a shitty killing spree by psychos.

I found this book to be very open and non biased towards any sides.It was the first book i have read on the subject that was truthful.I have found when i have read books about either side of the divide that they are always one sided i agree with you on that.this book tore apart maggies government at the way they operated during the troubles.
Like yourself i wish that all will be well with northern ireland,I look forward to the day when all peace fences are taken down and all communties can live togther in peace.

d3lt4-9 wrote:Thanks Trichome. It's a very interesting topic indeed. I really feel like I'm getting real insight into aspects of current European life when reading these titles. I'm an American atheist, but still find these books immensely interesting.

Have you read "Beyond Belief - Islamic Excursions across the western sub-continent" by V S Naipul - Quite Biased against the Muslims but nevertheless interesting in its' scope...

Trichome_Dense wrote:

d3lt4-9 wrote:Thanks Trichome. It's a very interesting topic indeed. I really feel like I'm getting real insight into aspects of current European life when reading these titles. I'm an American atheist, but still find these books immensely interesting.

Have you read "Beyond Belief - Islamic Excursions across the western sub-continent" by V S Naipul - Quite Biased against the Muslims but nevertheless interesting in its' scope...

No, haven't read it, or even heard of it for that matter. I checked it out though. The reviews on Amazon are divided almost 50/50, and it seems interesting. I shall add it to the list. Thanks to everyone for these recommendations! I'll be a minor expert on Islamic-Euro relations before I know it if this keeps up.

And you're right Trichome, I can keep an objective viewpoint on this topic being American. One of the things that sparked my interest in this subject is the discontent that European Muslims seem to harbor on a day-to-day basis toward their host countries, whereas here in the U.S., our Muslim population seems somewhat content with their surroundings. Meanwhile, we're supposed to be the #1 target for foreign terrorists here in the U.S.. I've concluded that this boils down to the fact that we haven't been as xenophobic in the U.S. as some parts of Europe has with regard to immigrants from the Middle East and Indian subcontinent. I've lived very close to a city with a thriving Muslim population my whole life, and I can tell you that when 9/11 happened, they weren't celebrating. They were worrying about how the event was going to fuck up their program, which was going great up to that point.

d3lt4-9 wrote:I've lived very close to a city with a thriving Muslim population my whole life, and I can tell you that when 9/11 happened, they weren't celebrating. They were worrying about how the event was going to fuck up their program, which was going great up to that point.

D3lt4-9 - It was the same here in London. I'm also a Muslim (albeit I blaze weed and cigarrettes, I have no other vices) and I do try and attend Friday prayers in the local Mosque...

When 9/11 happened I was working in the Ethnic Media Group offices in Whitechapel, East London... The reaction of my work colleagues was disgusting to say the least. At that time in EMG there were whites/blacks and asians all working together - yet it was the whites and blacks who quickly started pointing fingers at anyone who was a Muslim (including me) saying things like "Bet you're laughing really aint you mate?" and "Does this mean your Brother in Islam now goes to Heaven - coz that's fucked up!", they were making me and others feel uncomfortable and almost guilty over something which was nothing to do with us personally... Trying to explain what the Muslim communities have done for the UK in terms of generating Business and the like held no weight whatsoever and it was more a matter of 'He who shouts loudest - get's heard/wins' I'm not into that kind of debating...

and once after 9/11 a "Sales Motivation Expert" who trains the Advertising Sales staff made a comment which I complained so much about - he got sacked...

This is what happened, The Ethnic Media Group building is opposite East London Mosque - the only mossque in my knowledge which actually calls out the "Call to prayer (Adhan)" - The call to prayer wnet off "Allahu-Akbar etc" and this guy says "What the fuck is that crap - when will they shut those bloody muslims up?" ... my cup of coffee went CRASH onto the floor - and I had to call him outside and have a word with him. IHe refused to apologise so I complained to the advertising manager and group manager, they didn't even take it seriously... So I made a petition which I got every Muslim member of the company to sigh - and some non muslims too (who found the guy to be a total twat for saying what he did) and threatened the Group manager that if he doesnt take this petition seriously, I'll be going to the national papers next - not caring if I held the job after that...

4 Months later they sacked me because "I didn;t fit in with the company profile" well, their loss... They lost out on 2 publications when I left, and are now trying to find an investor as Trinity Mirror Southern no longer wants EMG as a part of their portfolio of businesses... lol

I wasn't really interested in my religion at this stage in my life - I was 24/25 and enjoying being a young gun! But experienceing Racism and Religious hatred at this point in my life, forced me to take an interest in my inherited religion, and what I found I liked a lot. Islam is a religion of Tolerance and Understanding, it's appeal is very uninversal, and is a religion which not only defines the spiritual side of Faith, like all religions do - but the practical side of faith which makes Humans feel an affinity with its teachings...

I work in Media - and I must say, it is fun - but is all Lies and misrepresentation... I have first hand experience of being an Editor of 3 published titles, and have feature edited many an article in my career... I understand one thing about the media - It misrepresents 75% of what we see on TV, Read in papers and magazines and the like... The truth is that the British and American public are fickle enough to believe what they see on TV and read in the papers, it's just such a shame.

...then these same fickle people who have been misled into thinking it is ok to hate Muslims, go through life in ignorance...

I am really touched by your interest in this subject D3lt4-9 - Something which I would love to talk at length with you about... As it is quite close to my heart!

Denomolous wrote:

Mark_d wrote:just finished world war Z for the 4th or 5th time, amazing book if your into zombie movies or whatever then this is awesome!

Good Stuff... If you read "World War Z: An Oral History of the Zombie War" by Max Brooks, my advice is to also pick up "The Zombie Survival Guide: Complete Protection from the Living Dead" also by Max Brooks

Borrowing a copy off a friend at the moment, its good stuff!!!

i'm reading this thread... just about to move onto another one.

One of my favorite poems.

Images by Tyrone Greene ...

Dark and lonely on a summer night.
Kill my landlord, kill my landlord.
Watchdog barking - Do he bite?
Kill my landlord, kill my landlord.
Slip in his window,
Break his neck!
Then his house
I start to wreck!
Got no reason --
What the heck!
Kill my landlord, kill my landlord.
C-I-L-L ...
My land - lord ...

I'm really into crime novels. I'm currently reading Jeffery Deaver's Broken Window. And with the same as my annual trips to Amsterdam Lord of The Rings is always on the go...

Trichome_Dense wrote:

d3lt4-9 wrote:I've lived very close to a city with a thriving Muslim population my whole life, and I can tell you that when 9/11 happened, they weren't celebrating. They were worrying about how the event was going to fuck up their program, which was going great up to that point.

D3lt4-9 - It was the same here in London. I'm also a Muslim (albeit I blaze weed and cigarrettes, I have no other vices) and I do try and attend Friday prayers in the local Mosque...

When 9/11 happened I was working in the Ethnic Media Group offices in Whitechapel, East London... The reaction of my work colleagues was disgusting to say the least. At that time in EMG there were whites/blacks and asians all working together - yet it was the whites and blacks who quickly started pointing fingers at anyone who was a Muslim (including me) saying things like "Bet you're laughing really aint you mate?" and "Does this mean your Brother in Islam now goes to Heaven - coz that's fucked up!", they were making me and others feel uncomfortable and almost guilty over something which was nothing to do with us personally... Trying to explain what the Muslim communities have done for the UK in terms of generating Business and the like held no weight whatsoever and it was more a matter of 'He who shouts loudest - get's heard/wins' I'm not into that kind of debating...

and once after 9/11 a "Sales Motivation Expert" who trains the Advertising Sales staff made a comment which I complained so much about - he got sacked...

This is what happened, The Ethnic Media Group building is opposite East London Mosque - the only mossque in my knowledge which actually calls out the "Call to prayer (Adhan)" - The call to prayer wnet off "Allahu-Akbar etc" and this guy says "What the fuck is that crap - when will they shut those bloody muslims up?" ... my cup of coffee went CRASH onto the floor - and I had to call him outside and have a word with him. IHe refused to apologise so I complained to the advertising manager and group manager, they didn't even take it seriously... So I made a petition which I got every Muslim member of the company to sigh - and some non muslims too (who found the guy to be a total twat for saying what he did) and threatened the Group manager that if he doesnt take this petition seriously, I'll be going to the national papers next - not caring if I held the job after that...

4 Months later they sacked me because "I didn;t fit in with the company profile" well, their loss... They lost out on 2 publications when I left, and are now trying to find an investor as Trinity Mirror Southern no longer wants EMG as a part of their portfolio of businesses... lol

I wasn't really interested in my religion at this stage in my life - I was 24/25 and enjoying being a young gun! But experienceing Racism and Religious hatred at this point in my life, forced me to take an interest in my inherited religion, and what I found I liked a lot. Islam is a religion of Tolerance and Understanding, it's appeal is very uninversal, and is a religion which not only defines the spiritual side of Faith, like all religions do - but the practical side of faith which makes Humans feel an affinity with its teachings...

I work in Media - and I must say, it is fun - but is all Lies and misrepresentation... I have first hand experience of being an Editor of 3 published titles, and have feature edited many an article in my career... I understand one thing about the media - It misrepresents 75% of what we see on TV, Read in papers and magazines and the like... The truth is that the British and American public are fickle enough to believe what they see on TV and read in the papers, it's just such a shame.

...then these same fickle people who have been misled into thinking it is ok to hate Muslims, go through life in ignorance...

I am really touched by your interest in this subject D3lt4-9 - Something which I would love to talk at length with you about... As it is quite close to my heart!

Tricome, I have many muslim friends and not once have I thought that its the whole muslim community behind 911. In fact, I am told by some of them that the extremist who did 911 are only 1%or less of the muslim community. That if you read the Koran, in no way does it ever condone killing another human being. Of course I have not read it from front to back but I beleive my friends. Be reassured that alot of Americans feel the way I do. Unfortunately there are weird people everywhere, and these are the people who would think that. Cheers

Hey TD,

I'm sorry to hear about the racism you've experienced. I'm surprised you're not bitter about being sacked since you were clearly in the right. You certainly don't need any validation from me, but I am sure you did the right thing in standing up against an obviously hateful slur. If you hadn't, it probably would have eaten away at you. I know it would have bothered me.

When I encounter discrimination, sometimes the only thing that keeps me from going postal is the realization that for every idiot out there there's someone else who is decent and good. I'd hate to think what would happen if I no longer believed that.

I hope one of these days we can hookup in the Dam and share a bowl or two. Take care bro.

Peace,
titus

Cattales and Titus Wong - to both of you, thank you for your kind words and understanding... if our paths do happen to cross (hopefully) we'll blaze down more than a bowl or two lol - I have no doubt we all have much to share. Weed included lol.

Oh btw, just finished reading "Fingerprints of the Gods" by Graham Hancock for the 5th or 6th time - It's loose fact littered with bullshit about the earth and it's historic movememnts. Starting with Earth Crust and tectonic plate shifts - moving onto people movements and the first defined civilisations - then goes into some crazy talk about some crazier shit... and ends by telling us that the modern world as we see it now, will end in the year 2012 (which is what the Mayan calender predicts in his findings) - pretty entertaining when you are buzzing before bedtime. Bedtime stories for adults?