Baby P

[Ash333]

Like I said, it works here, if you kill someone, we'll kill ya back!
Anyone that can do that to a child needs to be taken out of the gene pool!.
And, I am in favor of capital punishment.

Bollocks!

We're all outraged by the killing of any human being, or should be.
Human lives are valuable beyond money but I suppose Americans don't understand that point of view, and thats why every week innocent Iraqi's and Afghans are dying from US bullets.
Who are we to say who should live and who should die? What gives us the right to look down on other people? What if (and its happened before) someone is executed for a crime which it is later proved they did not commit?


My point is that life should mean life, rather than the current state of affairs where one could murder and be released serving under 10 years of jail time. If you murder, you never ever should be given your freedom back. And we can learn something from the Thai jails - if all murderers, rapists and paedophiles had to endure something similar to a 3rd world jail I think a lot of these crimes woul;dnt be commited as people would be too scared of the punishment.

**and breath.......

[Ash333]

If it was down to me the mother of Baby P would be sterilized and the men involved would be chemical castration.

why chemical castration?. I'd use a rusty spoon with a sharpened edge!

[courtjester]

I find it deeply amusing that a deeply Christian country should feel it right to deny one of there their own commandments.

Thou shall not kill

Oh sorry, I must have missed the small print last time I read it, i've just noticed the * and the footnote...

*except when we decide it's ok.

Blatant Bill Hicks plagurism, but the sentiment is as true for me as it was for him.

How can you profess to be a nation under God, when you choose to openly contradict his very word. What happened to compassion? As I said, I find it extremely humorous but that's just me.

Just because a couple of words are in any country's pledge, or national anthem, or any other such jingoistic crap, doesn't mean everyone living there believes in or abides by it. You can find a hell of a lot of Americans who don't believe "under God" has a place in a pledge to a nation in which freedom of religion means the privilege of not acknowledging any God whatsoever.

This is a big country with a lot of people who think a lot of different ways, bro. Don't think for a second that just because someone came up with a pledge we all learned how to recite as children that we're all square pegs fitting square holes.

Capital punishment is an issue of state's rights. Most states don't allow it. The U.S. government, to the best of my knowledge (anyone with a law degree, correct me if I'm off-base) has not executed anyone since Timothy McVeigh. Before that, the last federal execution was in the early-1960s. The Supreme Court ruled capital punishment is not unconstitutional but the feds themselves virtually never execute anyone.

Except under the guise of bullshit wars, that is.

I happen to live in a state, Michigan, which was the first English-speaking government to abolish capital punishment, in 1846. That would include, uh, England.

Texas, on the other hand, has an ever-ready drip machine, as BigRigRob can attest.

If you're going to whack a Texan, for God's sake, take him to Broken Bow or Texarkana first.

[courtjester]

By the way, sorry to hijack the thread...I think apt punishment would be to kill these miscreants in precisely the way they killed their baby -- slowly, painfully, and with lots of bone breaks and minor amputations along the way. It's one of the most disgusting tales I've ever heard.

[user54321]

Like I said, it works here, if you kill someone, we'll kill ya back!

Quoted for the sheer ridiculousness of the statement. What the fuck makes you (or yours) so infallible?

Courts have been influenced in one way or another since courts began, nobody should be allowed the death penalty when there has been evidence of corruption at all levels all the way through history and sometimes they just plain get it wrong, as a world we've seen this happen time and time again. It's a ridiculous notion. Rob, if the world worked on the premise "an eye for an eye" we would all be blind.

It's my honest belief that anyone pro-death penalty is a bit of a trigger happy nutcase and if you want blood spilled you should head off and start shooting at each other, far away from the civilised world where the thinkers realise that death is no way to solve any problem.

Imagine you're convicted of a crime you didn't commit, cirumstance is stacked against you, the people involved in trying you could take personal exception to you & alter or plant evidence - all of which has happened in the past but if you kill somebody then what chance of a reprieve are they to have then? Their family? You would have taken away a father/mother/sister/brother. The blood of an innocent is then on your hands. That fact alone is enough to warrant it's abolition.

If the crime committed is of a nature similar to this where I don't believe any jury would be completely unbiased, given the suggestion of what's been done, you could have been set up to end up in this situation, etc etc - you'd be singing from a different song sheet then, let me tell you! Like that boy, Scottish lad, Kenny Ritchie. Spent 20 years on death row, always protested his innocence, could have gone for a plea and spent 11 for arson and manslaughter but refused and plead not guilty so they put him on death row for a crime he did not commit, again it involved a child. He had to go for a plea of no contest (to not only avoid a 2nd death sentence but to gain the freedom he was denied due to sheer and utter incompetence) which was as close as you'll get to the courts admitting they were wrong. Infallible? I do not think so, you very nearly put one of my countrymen to death for your own judicial fuck ups. That sticks in my craw and it sticks in my craw even more that people support an archaic practice like that. 'scuse my french, but it's fucking barbaric.

Before you decide to reply, rob, ask yourself the question I posted above. What makes you and yours so infallible? The entire court process is run by humans and that, almost by definition, makes it prone to mistake. Mistakes cannot be tolerated when you are dealing with human life. You wouldn't want it with your own life, why should others have to deal with the most outdated of laws next to slavery and the criminalisation of weed? It really is up there with those bad-boys of the ancient world. Start living in today, not yesterday. Use your head, not your sword. etc.

* stands down *

[courtjester]

[quote="Neldo]It's my honest belief that anyone pro-death penalty is a bit of a trigger happy nutcase[/quote]

It's my honest belief that anyone painting with a broad brush is likely to get splattered with all sorts of mess that doesn't belong on him, too -- from other people painting with broad brushes, probably.

You can find plenty of people who think we're all nutcases because we advocate freedom of drug expression. Would you agree with them or would you consider them to be generalizing and stereotyping? There's no middle ground, no grey area on that one. It's one or the other. We're either all nutcases, as they believe, or they're dead wrong.

By the same token, capital punishment advocates are either all trigger-happy nutcases, as you believe...or you're dead wrong.

If someone in your family had been murdered -- your wife, your husband, your mother -- and you advocated for the death penalty based on your personal experiences, would that make you a trigger-happy nutcase?

All I know is it would make you a terribly pained and wronged human being, and in the course of finding justice for those wrongs, not everyone is going to agree on what constitutes it.

[SoulRider]

It's my honest belief that anyone pro-death penalty is a bit of a trigger happy nutcase

You can find plenty of people who think we're all nutcases because we advocate freedom of drug expression. Would you agree with them or would you consider them to be generalizing and stereotyping? There's no middle ground, no grey area on that one. It's one or the other. We're either all nutcases, as they believe, or they're dead wrong.

By the same token, capital punishment advocates are either all trigger-happy nutcases, as you believe...or you're dead wrong.

If someone in your family had been murdered -- your wife, your husband, your mother -- and you advocated for the death penalty based on your personal experiences, would that make you a trigger-happy nutcase?

All I know is it would make you a terribly pained and wronged human being, and in the course of finding justice for those wrongs, not everyone is going to agree on what constitutes it.

This is true, but by the same token if we learn to show compassion and forgiveness to those who wrong against us, help them and make them into better people, no matter what they do. That is the way of God. Your 'Right's' and 'wrong's' as you said, are just that, you're right or wrong, based on your view of the world. Not one individual has the wrong view, they view it as they see it as a direct result of their life, no 2 people have the same view, life would be boring if we did

If you don't agree with someone's point of view, you need to become their friend why they have that point of view, you might learn something, maybe their point of view is 'right' as you see it. At the end of the day, right and wrong do not exist. They are judgements made of a situation based on your perception of things. If anyone was completely right, they would have the answer to the question of the mesaning of life.

We can all strive for that

Arguing just shows you aren't accepting other people's point of view is correct as well, they are correct as they see it, and that is why you can never resolve an argument. Just accept you both are right.

[Ash333]

killing is wrong and never justified. We have an alternative, its called jail. bang murderers up till they die, and give them the opportunity to commit suicide if they prefer. The point is that these people must be kept off our streets permanently, without another killing taking place. As I've said previously, out jails in the UK are far too soft. If I was PM all the TV's and Radios would be ripped straight out and the heating would not be used.

[DC]

Life is worthless, you can buy it, sell it, rent it, make it and kill it for rock bottom prices these days, often free. The only reason this child's life has become more important than usual is because of the mistakes made by the authorities, but this story will become chip wrapper soon enough too. Personally, I think the death penalty doesn't work because to make it effective, you'd have to cull so much of the human race it would take the rest centuries to recover from using it properly.

As for god, what sort of sick fukt up god would create the sicker fukt up person that murdered this child. It's more rhetorical than anything else but if yer gonna reply, please mention the devil so I may continue to see religion as the biggest joke and at the same time, ball and chain, ever bestowed upon humanity.

[Ash333]

Life is worthless

WRONG

[DC]

Prove it. What is the value of a life?.

[user54321]

It's my honest belief that anyone painting with a broad brush is likely to get splattered with all sorts of mess that doesn't belong on him, too -- from other people painting with broad brushes, probably.

You can find plenty of people who think we're all nutcases because we advocate freedom of drug expression. Would you agree with them or would you consider them to be generalizing and stereotyping? There's no middle ground, no grey area on that one. It's one or the other. We're either all nutcases, as they believe, or they're dead wrong.

By the same token, capital punishment advocates are either all trigger-happy nutcases, as you believe...or you're dead wrong.

If someone in your family had been murdered -- your wife, your husband, your mother -- and you advocated for the death penalty based on your personal experiences, would that make you a trigger-happy nutcase?

All I know is it would make you a terribly pained and wronged human being, and in the course of finding justice for those wrongs, not everyone is going to agree on what constitutes it.

You make a valid point, I don't think an entirely fair one because when it comes to any argument over things like this (or indeed the expression of drug use point you make) then we are all as fallible as the next (yup, me included, but I'm not attempting to remove anybody from their mortal coil so at least if i'm wrong nobody gets hurt or killed), but those who wont admit that and are happy enough to kill in the "life for a life" sense, then at the very least, are baying for blood without thinking properly. That was my point. If you'd rather use the chair/injection/whatever without realising you could be wrong (and how can you realise you might be wrong and go ahead with it - hence the trigger happy nutcase comment) then you are simply out for blood and if you're out for blood, what are you? Trigger happy.

I'm not tarring everybody with the same brush, I'm just trying to rationalise the thinking behind being pro death penalty and that's the only reason I can see behind it, a thirst to see death dealt. Do you see what I mean? If you can try and rationalise that type of thinking differently I would be happy to hear it and maybe it might change the way I see it, not what I feel about it, but perhaps change my perception of those pro-death?

If someone in my family had been murdered, I would have the good fucking sense to realise courts have and always will be wrong at times and that through the knee-jerk reactions of some, an innocent human could be killed and then there's 2 deaths to deal with and 2 families have lost a loved one. When it comes to killing people for their crimes, there is no sure fire way to know that somebody is 100% guilty when there's so much involved that can go wrong. Think, that's all I'm saying.

[Toker70]

Prove it. What is the value of a life?.

Only u can answer that question D.C;How's much do u consider ur life to be worth and why would someone be worth more or less than u(except of course these sad ppl with some part of their brain missing)

A better form of punishment for this poor souls parents(if u can call them parents) would be an island somewhere with no food and starving packs of dogs to contend with(my real thoughts on this are too long and selfinvolved to post)

This was a truly horrific crime but unfortunatley it's happening everyday of the week somewhere on this planet and worse still is a lot of the time it's not even reported let alone punished

[Sir Niall of Essex-sire]

Prove it. What is the value of a life?.

Fuck all.

Governments will use you to fight wars through mandory signing up for the armed forces, in that regard you are only a pawn.

Human life is all in all not as valuable as we would like to think, we are tempory existing beings on a world destined to be destroyed. We will all die, be remembered by some of the generation following us, but then we will be forgot and it'll be like we never existed. The world will eventually be consumed by the sun and then it will be like humans never existed.

However i do realise that view of things could lead to complete chaos so i do agree in following the lie that we matter and Human live is valuable. As i think this is important for the development of society. Otherwise people would start to think ' why bother if we dont matter?'

Im not trying to play down the evil of this case, im just pointing out that the value of a Human Life is very low, if not nothing, as we have no way of influencing or adding a long term positive consequence to universe in which we live. All of us are insignificant, not much would be different in the world if one of us was not born.

[Ash333]

Prove it. What is the value of a life?.

go jump off a bridge if your life is valueless. Mine isnt.