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Just came across this video on You Tube called: The Simple Facts Cannabis and Hemp it's a 10 part documentary, I haven't watched it all yet (I'm on no.4) but so far it looks pretty good and I thought this was the appropiate thread.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=ljs5YuQ4mPk - this is part 1 of 10.

Regarding the schizophrenia/psychosis previously mentioned, I think it is important to note that cannabis has been proven to increase the chances of this happening in some people.

However, what this means, is that it depends on the state or mental set up by the user. If someone is, say, 5% likely to develop mental health problems, then smoking a joint will not make a difference. However, if someone is very likely to, even if it is underlying, then that joint could trigger something.

Nonetheless, in those cases, another experience such as a death in the family, a breakup, losing a job could also give the same result.

It just annoyed me so much when the press here a while ago were making it sound as though "mind-altering skunk weed" was this evil force turning the kids into psychotic, knife wielding, ASBO collecting lunatics.

Boner wrote:Just came across this video on You Tube called: The Simple Facts Cannabis and Hemp it's a 10 part documentary, I haven't watched it all yet (I'm on no.4) but so far it looks pretty good and I thought this was the appropiate thread.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=ljs5YuQ4mPk - this is part 1 of 10.

Thank you Boner

That doesn't quite sound right

But thank you from the bottom of my heart. It makes my heart very happy to know I am not the only one who is fighting against the lies that are propogated. While not going into specific, they mentioned a huge number of diseases, alzheimers included, that are benefited by Marijuana usage. I'm glad that was mentioned, as people may begin to trust me when I say I really have researched this truly wonderful herb. As they say, in the final chapter

Marijuana itself is not addictive, but when you start to learn about the wonder of the plant, that is addictive

Never was a truer word spoken. I found this to be the case, and I cringe. Only the other day I found a medical website and every statement was either a complete myth, or was a truth presented from a distorted viewpoint. I'd like to post this in this thread.

This is an example from the website where they used a distorted, or should I say, non objective, perception of marijuana, then use the statement to prove their point.

http://www.medic8.com/healthguide/artic ... juana.html

Effects of Heavy Marijuana Use on Learning and Social Behavior

Research clearly demonstrates that marijuana has the potential to cause problems in daily life or make a person's existing problems worse. Depression, anxiety, and personality disturbances have been associated with chronic marijuana use. Because marijuana compromises the ability to learn and remember information, the more a person uses marijuana the more he or she is likely to fall behind in accumulating intellectual, job, or social skills. Moreover, research has shown that marijuana’s adverse impact on memory and learning can last for days or weeks after the acute effects of the drug wear off.

Students who smoke marijuana get lower grades and are less likely to graduate from high school, compared with their nonsmoking peers. A study of 129 college students found that, among those who smoked the drug at least 27 of the 30 days prior to being surveyed, critical skills related to attention, memory, and learning were significantly impaired, even after the students had not taken the drug for at least 24 hours. These "heavy" marijuana abusers had more trouble sustaining and shifting their attention and in registering, organizing, and using information than did the study participants who had abused marijuana no more than 3 of the previous 30 days. As a result, someone who smokes marijuana every day may be functioning at a reduced intellectual level all of the time.

More recently, the same researchers showed that the ability of a group of long-term heavy marijuana abusers to recall words from a list remained impaired for a week after quitting, but returned to normal within 4 weeks. Thus, some cognitive abilities may be restored in individuals who quit smoking marijuana, even after long-term heavy use.

Workers who smoke marijuana are more likely than their coworkers to have problems on the job. Several studies associate workers' marijuana smoking with increased absences, tardiness, accidents, workers' compensation claims, and job turnover. A study among postal workers found that employees who tested positive for marijuana on a pre-employment urine drug test had 55 percent more industrial accidents, 85 percent more injuries, and a 75-percent increase in absenteeism compared with those who tested negative for marijuana use. In another study, heavy marijuana abusers reported that the drug impaired several important measures of life achievement including cognitive abilities, career status, social life, and physical and mental health.

Ok, first off. I'm the kind of guy that likes to know FACTS. Statements of truth. So a section of an article saying "Marijuana has the potential to cause problems in daily life" is a bit of an open ended statement, as anything, inclinding a nail on the road which goes in your tyre, blows it, and causes you to crash and be hospitalised, also has the potential to cause problems in daily life.

So the article didn't start off with me too well. I guessed this wouldn't be the most scientific medical site I had come across.

I wasn't dissapointed

Students who smoke marijuana get lower grades and are less likely to graduate from high school, compared with their nonsmoking peers.

The rest of that section says that basically, if you smoke marijuana you are stupid, because you will fail school.

I've got news for people out there. I failed school, I wasn't smoking marijuana then, well a bit stolen by my mates from their dad when they visited him, maybe a gram they would get every 6 months. I failed school, not because of drugs, and certainly not because I am stupid, I was the top of every class I was in acedemically. I failed because school failed me. People failing school because of Marijuana are doing it because they realise the education system and the way we educate them is a load of rubbish. Let me explain.

Smoking Marijuana makes you think more, and generally more creativity. This is about finding who you are. You also learn to think logically, and most importantly, for yourself.

In schools, we fail our children generation after generation in every developed society in the world. The reason is we are teaching our children 'facts' about history and science and everything else. we tell them what we want them to know. We tell them Hitler was evil. we tell them our version. Of course, if Hitler had won, we would have been taught a very different version. What children should be taught, is how to think, not what to think. Let's look at the Hitler scenario in my schools, in my enlightened society.

Children would be taught the events of the war as fact. Dates, times, this data still needs to be learned, so that it is not forgotten. the difference would be they would not be taught that Hitler was an evil man, for that is merely one persons opinion. They would present all the facts, from both sides, and let the children think for themselves, if Hitler was evil. If they did, they would likely come to the same conclusion as me. that Hitler was a messenger from God, someone who had an important lesson for us all, but we failed to see that, and as a race, we paid an intolerable price.

I know I'm going to need to explain my last statement here, so bear with me, it's a controversial statement, but I have it on good authority, from God himself, that this is the case. Also, I have read Mein Kampf, and I would suggest anyone who has an opinion on Hitler, good or bad, does read it, before continuing their judgements.

To be Evil, you must knowingly do wrong. This is what evil is. Something that goes against your own personal moral viewpoint. That is what we see as evil. Therefore, as you see, as no 2 people have the same moral viewpoint, they will never agree on what is evil, so therefore, evil technically doesn't exist.

That aside Hitler never did what he thought was wrong. His life had been destroyed, his nation was being terrorised by the French, and the Jews were behind it. The Austro-Hungarian empire was a turbulent place. To Hitlers viewpoint, Jews were evil, so everything he did was morally right from his view of the world. Of course, as no 2 people have the same view of the world, for your own life experiences, from the way you were raised, to the schools you attended, and the people you have met shape your view of the world, and it is always unique, that means that right doesn't exist either.

Hitler was a messenger from God, as he showed how far humainty could go, if it was driven further from him. God will never leave us, he will always send messengers to us, some bringing news of how great humanity can be, and some to show us how bad humanity can be, if we let it.

That was the lesson. The world knew what Hitler was doing and going to do. The world could have stopped Hitler from killing ANY Jews. It didn't. Hitler was not evil. He acted in a way he thought was morally right. The rest of the world, was evil, because they allowed him to act in a way they believed to be morally wrong. Again, wrong, doesn't really exist, but thou shalt not kill, is valid for everyone. I capital punishment. No-one should be killed, what happened to forgiveness? Ok, so you can't forgive them. So lock them up for ever, and make that mean forever, but to kill. No, that is not the way of God.

Here's an interesting Historical fact not taught in schools. When Hitler was devising his plan, he wanted to form an alliance with the 2 other nations that hated the Jews as much as he. That was Italy and Britain. Do you want to know the funny thing. Britain was totally behind Hitler, but only decided not to join up with Germany, as they felt they couldn't afford to enter into another war so close after the first world war.

Ironically, if we had of sided with the Germans, against the Jews, and Russia, the war would have been over much quicker, with the German, British and Italian forces working together. The 2 best Air Forces in the world. The 2 best navys in the world, as well as some of the best organised troops and generals. It would have been over in a cinch.

Politics hey, all boils down to money in the end.

Hitler was not evil, the rest of the world was. He truth was misguided, but he stuck to his beliefs, that makes him a man of great faith.

Now those are my thoughts on it, but that's not what would be taught, the facts would be taught, both sides, and the children would then make up their own mind, was Hitler evil, or was he errant in his beliefs. They are 2 very different ways of looking at the same fact, and seeing things very differently.

Our schools fail because we teach children what to think, not how to think. Consequently, common sense disappears more with each generation. This is purely because you are not taught how to evaluate and think laterally, to apply one experience onto another. This leaves many people struggling in the world today. It also allows people to rely on being told the answer, and believing everything they are told, because they don't know any other way to get information.

I know many of you will disagree, and that is fine, but just remember, that is YOUR way of looking at it. Everyone will look at it differently, focusing on a different thing. Therefore, everything I said, is true, everything I said is right, as I believe it. If you do not agree, you are right too, because that is your belief. Of course if we believe polar opposites, and we are both right, then right is wrong and wrong is right. When 2 polar opposites exist in the same space, that is called Divine Dichotomy, and is the sign of the lord at work.

Marijuana's effect on the brain is a Divine Dichotomy. It relaxes AND stimulates. It activates the sympatic and parasympstic areas of the brain. One which elevates moods, and the other depresses moods. I will get to work on that write up soon, that's the truth, unless I don't, then it isn't, but I believe it at teh moment, so it's true

No offence or stab directed at anybody here.. but why does everybody swear by weed and how much of a "holy" drug it is.. because it really isnt.
Yes you may say it has medical applications.. but then so does heroin and you dont see anybody on here telling people how good it is to pin up. Speed is good for people with ADHD as it calms them down.
MDMA was used in certain medical situations where people had a break-down of commuinication to help them talk again.
I personally find that weed is addictive.. i broke my regular cycle of smoking once a weekend by smoking everyday last week.. now i have no weed.. i feel like shit and i want a joint..
People say they notice a difference in me when ive been smoking regularly.. more on edge, snappy and lazy.
As said it differs from people to people but i really cant stand it when people stick up for a drug saying that it is a "wonderplant".. Its really not, its more like an evolutionary benefit for the plants sake that we discovered how too use.

And whats worse is the new breeds of plants like the Skunks and Hazes that are too strong to be smoked regularly and do cause worse side effects than regs or hash.. This is probably because teenagers are smoking skunk like its normal weed, blazing an eigth a day when it can be 4-5 times stronger than regs..
Smoking even 1-2g of Strong weed a day is like having a drinking problem in my eyes.. Just as damaging.

Dont get me wrong i do enjoy having a smoking session with some friends or when im out at the weekend but a regular habit is a bad thing (with anything) and you should always throw caution to the wind.

NYCBud wrote:No offence or stab directed at anybody here.. but why does everybody swear by weed and how much of a "holy" drug it is.. because it really isnt.
Yes you may say it has medical applications.. but then so does heroin and you dont see anybody on here telling people how good it is to pin up. Speed is good for people with ADHD as it calms them down.
MDMA was used in certain medical situations where people had a break-down of commuinication to help them talk again.
I personally find that weed is addictive.. i broke my regular cycle of smoking once a weekend by smoking everyday last week.. now i have no weed.. i feel like shit and i want a joint..
People say they notice a difference in me when ive been smoking regularly.. more on edge, snappy and lazy.
As said it differs from people to people but i really cant stand it when people stick up for a drug saying that it is a "wonderplant".. Its really not, its more like an evolutionary benefit for the plants sake that we discovered how too use.

And whats worse is the new breeds of plants like the Skunks and Hazes that are too strong to be smoked regularly and do cause worse side effects than regs or hash.. This is probably because teenagers are smoking skunk like its normal weed, blazing an eigth a day when it can be 4-5 times stronger than regs..
Smoking even 1-2g of Strong weed a day is like having a drinking problem in my eyes.. Just as damaging.

Dont get me wrong i do enjoy having a smoking session with some friends or when im out at the weekend but a regular habit is a bad thing (with anything) and you should always throw caution to the wind.

I understand your point of view and do not agree with it, but rather than tell you that you have it all wrong, I will try and answer your post with science and truth. Whether you believe it or not is entirely up to you.

Your first bit about medical applications. Marijuana is recognised as having over 5,000 medical uses. There is no current drug, either pharmacutical or otherwise that has even half of that number of uses. Medically the plant is a "Wonder Plant" because it can treat illnesses that modern pharmacutical companies haven't got a clue how to treat.

Yes all these drugs have good medical uses, but Marijuana is the only drug in existence that does not have any significant side effects. All the other treatments have side effects, some that are worse than the illness they are treating. If you look at the uses of the plant 5,00 medical uses and over 200,000 non medical uses, there is nothing in the entire history of the universe that is anywhere near as useful as this plant. It truly is a 'Wonder Plant'. Just because your narrowminded view of Marijuana is stuck in the whole getting stoned viewpoint. Smoking marijuana as a recreational drug is almost a disrespect to the amazing power of the plant. The fact it can be smoked by perfectly healty people without ill effect, is another amazing thing. Try giving prescription drugs to well people and see if they cause any trouble. they do, all the time.

I mean, you can kill yourself by swallowing too many aspirin, Marijuana on the other hand has never killed a single human being in the 3 million+ years that humans and their predecessors have been using it, oh yeah, and as for humans giving the plant evolutionary benefits, you got the cart WAY before the horse there dude.
Marijuana is one of the oldest forms of plant life currently alive on the planet, in fact it is only secondary to Ferns as the oldest living species of plant on the planet, I believe, memory a bit hazy on that one, will have to double check. Marijuana survived the dinosaurs and all throughout the history of man, we have not evolved it at all.

The new breeds of skunks are too strong to be smoked regularly are they? Do you think the illegality of Marijuana has enabled to make it stronger? All I can say is I'm glad you weren't smoking in the sixties, because you'd be in real trouble. It is a fact, that because of the worldwide prohibitions on Marijuana it has regressed, and even the new super strains are only now approaching the THC levels of the Jamaican that was being sold in the sixties.

Look, so far all you have given me is vague personal subjective views. This is a thread aimed at dispelling myths through factual information, scientifically proven, and then logically joined together. Show me scientific evidence that contradicts my viewpoints, and I will be interested, as I say, I don't know everything.
I would strongly recommend you check out the video link posted by Boner above, and get reading some books on the subject of Marijuana, starting with The Benefits of Marijuana, then moving on from there. Really dude, I am all for people having different points of view, but I want them to be valid and substantiated. I will not believe anything I read, or feel without investigating it first. Please prove yourself right, I'd love to learn more about Martijuana. You show me scientific evidence that backs you up, and I will listen. Until then I will take the scientific knowledge I have so far learned, and believe that, as well as trusting my own, Marijuana Enhanced, perception and ability to see truth.

Marijuana is not addictive. How many more times does this have to be proven? EVERY SCIENTIFIC STUDY EVER UNDERTAKEN, from 1939 onwards, has shown that it is not addictive. For something to be addictive, in the medical/scientific form of the word, the body must become physically dependent on the substance, and suffer PHYSICAL withdrawal symptoms when the drug is removed. Marijuana has no physical withdrawal sysptoms.

Now if your saying that it is addictive to you, well unfortunately that is a MENTAL problem with you. You obviously have an addictive personality, and you smoke way too much, but if you are honest and look at your life, you will see you are addictive in other areas of your life. Mental addiction is about will power and your own mental strength, nothing more. I have an addictive personality, that is why I smoke so much, that is why I researched the subject so thoroughly and in-depth, that's me, Mr addictive. Do you know what, I have NEVER had a negative experience with Marijuana, and I'll challenge anyone to try and smoke with me while in a trip to Amsterdam to show I can get as high as anyone. I mean, I smoked 30 grams in one day in my august trip, you don't do that without an Addictive personality. The difference is I know Marijuana is non addictive, and that I HAVE AN ADDICTION PROBLEM. You on the other hand will not take responsibility for your own failings, and prefer to blame the weed. Well that is your choice and it's a free world, but don't expect me to believe your version of the truth unless you have the scientific evidence to back it up.

I can't understand it when people front up to a discussion with a random thought, with no scientific back up.

Let me add my own - If you smoke marijuana you will become a mass murder, oh sorry, that isn't an original one, the governments already made that one up. Oh well it will do, there is a statement just like yours - Marijuana is addictive. Both statements given without evidence, and as far as I am concerned, both false. I'm a hard man to please.

Fair point to you soulrider i can see what you are getting at.. I suppose its just different perceptives i know afew people that have fucked up from smoking wayyy to much bud.. One of them being my best friend as i mentioned.
Also i wasnt saying that humans have made Marijuana evolve i am saying that it could be that the THC that the plant contains is a defence mechanism.. much like a stinging nettle. Even though im sure we have something to do with it.. Selective breeding and all that.
I know that i do have quiet an addictive personality but after smoking alot of weed in the past i can say that i have got my intake down quiet alot compared to what it used to be.
With the addiction.. If your a regular weed smoker (dailey basis) Just stop.. stop for afew days just to see the effect it has on you.. Personally for me the few days after a sudden stop i find it hard to sleep and really crave for a spliff.
I think the REAL problem with weed is education.. acctualy scrap that i think the problem with nearly all drugs is education..
At school people aren't educated enough on the subject.. You basically get told the bad things about the drugs, how they will fuck you up in later life.. and dont do them.. That is basically all i was taught on the subject of drugs in school.
I Dont know if better education will help with future generations as most teenagers have a "I Don't give a fuck" Attitude. But i do think that if they are educated better about it they might have better understanding about what they are getting themselves into.
I didnt meen to shoot at ya soulrider im just going on experiances ive had..
You don't know what to beleive when you read these days.. To many biased opinions
Peace

NYCBud wrote:Fair point to you soulrider i can see what you are getting at.. I suppose its just different perceptives i know afew people that have fucked up from smoking wayyy to much bud.. One of them being my best friend as i mentioned.
Also i wasnt saying that humans have made Marijuana evolve i am saying that it could be that the THC that the plant contains is a defence mechanism.. much like a stinging nettle. Even though im sure we have something to do with it.. Selective breeding and all that.
I know that i do have quiet an addictive personality but after smoking alot of weed in the past i can say that i have got my intake down quiet alot compared to what it used to be.
With the addiction.. If your a regular weed smoker (dailey basis) Just stop.. stop for afew days just to see the effect it has on you.. Personally for me the few days after a sudden stop i find it hard to sleep and really crave for a spliff.
I think the REAL problem with weed is education.. acctualy scrap that i think the problem with nearly all drugs is education..
At school people aren't educated enough on the subject.. You basically get told the bad things about the drugs, how they will fuck you up in later life.. and dont do them.. That is basically all i was taught on the subject of drugs in school.
I Dont know if better education will help with future generations as most teenagers have a "I Don't give a fuck" Attitude. But i do think that if they are educated better about it they might have better understanding about what they are getting themselves into.
I didnt meen to shoot at ya soulrider im just going on experiances ive had..
You don't know what to beleive when you read these days.. To many biased opinions
Peace

hey nycbud,

quick question, do u mix ur spliffs? i mean add tobbaco?

Yea i put a minimal amount of baccy in my spliffs to help it burn.
I dont tend to smoke cigs.. only after afew drinks.. i think fags taste disgusting.
I can see what your getting at here though

NYCBud wrote:Fair point to you soulrider i can see what you are getting at.. I suppose its just different perceptives i know afew people that have fucked up from smoking wayyy to much bud.. One of them being my best friend as i mentioned.
Also i wasnt saying that humans have made Marijuana evolve i am saying that it could be that the THC that the plant contains is a defence mechanism.. much like a stinging nettle. Even though im sure we have something to do with it.. Selective breeding and all that.
I know that i do have quiet an addictive personality but after smoking alot of weed in the past i can say that i have got my intake down quiet alot compared to what it used to be.
With the addiction.. If your a regular weed smoker (dailey basis) Just stop.. stop for afew days just to see the effect it has on you.. Personally for me the few days after a sudden stop i find it hard to sleep and really crave for a spliff.
I think the REAL problem with weed is education.. acctualy scrap that i think the problem with nearly all drugs is education..
At school people aren't educated enough on the subject.. You basically get told the bad things about the drugs, how they will fuck you up in later life.. and dont do them.. That is basically all i was taught on the subject of drugs in school.
I Dont know if better education will help with future generations as most teenagers have a "I Don't give a fuck" Attitude. But i do think that if they are educated better about it they might have better understanding about what they are getting themselves into.
I didnt meen to shoot at ya soulrider im just going on experiances ive had..
You don't know what to beleive when you read these days.. To many biased opinions
Peace

I am trying to educate people, that is the point of the thread, and that is why I am trying to only put forward scientific facts and proposed theories that can be investigated. If we all think about the same thing, finding out the truth, then we will. It's that simple. Whether we believe it or not is another matter, but at least we will find the truth

By the way, as just mentioned, I guess you smoke with tobacco too, being a UK guy. Do you smoke at other times? I often get a craving for a spliff, but the craving is actually for tobacco, as I only smoke it in spliffs. I also 'need' a spliff to balance me out when I am stressed. this is again a mental image of a need, I associate marijuana with removing my stress, so I say I 'need' a joint, when in fact what I am really saying is I 'need' to relieve the stress. The joint id the provider of that relief, but is not the problem, I am not in need of the spliff, other than the fact i want its restorative properties, as its the quickest way, I could 'need' to meditate, if that was my way of stress relief, either 'need' is not an addiction.

I am in the middle of writing the text I promised, will upload it when finished.

I've always said this, cannabis is not a wonder drug or a take one puff and youll turn schizo and murder your family. Cannabis is a herb which is potentially extrmely useful for certain people but like any substance that changes peoples mind frames should be respectful and used responsibly.

Cannabis is not a wonder drug or the devils drug, it is as Buddhism says the middle way. That is that its nature lies in between those two extreme viewpoints.

Good Thread

I have to say first off, that I havent done any focused research on cannabis. So my contributions do not have any great authority, they are just musings, and personal beliefs based upon experience.

I work as a health professional, and have a fair bit of knowledge of alzheimers, neurology, psychology, neurosis and psychosis, and have done a lot of research to MSc level in these fields.

I have picked up snippets of both information and opinions along the way, and I have my own experiences and observations that I continue to reflect upon.

So, I would like to throw in a hotch potch of related points and issues, and I am interested to see what peoples perspectives are.


Addiction
There is still a lot of argument about what addiction actually is. The problem is that it is impossible to differentiate between physical and psychological addiction, because both aspects have a strong part to play in addictive behaviour.
The two points to consider are:
1) If people can be addicted to such things as gambling, sex, shoplifting, snowboarding or internet porn, why do people swear blind that smoking canabis is not addictive?
2) Anything that has a strong psychological response combined with an externally administered chemical constituant (ie not produced by the body), and repeated regularly over time, is highly likely to become habitual / addictive.

The point is often made that canabis is habitual rather than addictive, but having gone through a decade of "habitual" canabis use myself, I found it bloody hard to stop smoking it at the end of my 20s. Much harder than giving up tobacco, which I did 6 months before giving up canabis.

Having said that, everyone would recognise that there are other addictions (eg opiates and cocaine) that are far harder to give up. But my own belief is that canabis can definately be addictive, and that whilst many regular users can break the addiction / habit easily, there are many that cant.

The bottom line in habit-breaking is always motivation, and there can be many secondary gains to be had in staying habitually dependent on canabis, that outweigh the benefits of not using it.


Canabis leads on to harder drugs
For sure there is a large percentage of people who use canabis do not use other drugs. I dont know what this percentage is - anyone found a reliable answer to this???

I am convinved that there is a significant (ie a bloody high) number of people that use canabis and have also tried other drugs too. If canabis is seen as the least harmful of drugs, then it can be argued that canabis "leads on to harder drugs" This does not mean that if you smoke canabis you will end up a heroin addict. I know plenty of smokers (myself included) who have never touched heroin, I also know people who's first exposure to any drug was smoking heroin.

BUT my belief is that people who use canabis become more likely to try other drugs (which again was my own experience), and that there is accepted research that says that most heroin users did start their drug taking career with canabis.

Does this mean that smoking canabis makes you more likely to try other drugs ?

And if so, is that because of canabis itself, or is it a human response? where people who have an exploratory side to their charecter, are more likely to seek out other drugs with other effects? Therefore can you say whether the danger is with canabis or human nature?


Psychological Harm
This is very hard to accurately quantify, because there are so many variables at play.

My gut feeling is that regular canabis use is a mixed bag, and that it has both beneficial and harmful psychological effects.

I have worked in psychiatric wards, community mental health centres and as a private practitioner, and I can tell you that there are plenty of people around that are more mentally ill than they would have been because of their canabis use.

I dont want to down play this, because I think its important that people do not get into a state of denial about the fact that canabis can really fuck with your mind to the point where your wellbeing will suffer. Many of these effects can be subtle, and will wear off once you stop smoking. But when you consider that many people cannot (or dont want to) stop smoking, then it becomes a real problem.

The effects that I have seen are, paranoia, reduced self esteem, reduced motivation, reduced attention span, delayed / stunted relationship skills, confusion, disorientation, and elements of poor executive function (ie higher level thinking)

You can also argue that if you want to lead a lifestyle that harmoniously incorporates these effects, then you are not going to be too badly disadvantaged. In other words (as in the film Jackie Brown) "if your only ambition is to get high and watch TV" then regular canabis use is going to support you rather than hinder you.

Again, from my own experience I would say that the worst effects of regular canabis use are suppressed motivation / ambition, and delayed relationship skills. If I hadnt been such a stoner in my teens and twenties, then I would have got off my arse, got better qualifications, and wouldnt be so fucking broke now. Also I would have gone out, communicated with a lot more people and found new ways to develop my relationships rather than simply turning to canabis escapeland whenever the going got tough.

Obviously that is just my own history, and I dont blame canabis for that. But I do feel it had a part to play.


Medical Uses

There is a lot of anecdotal and low level research, but very little "gold standard" research in the medical use of canabis. I feel the reason for this has been political, as governments are very wary about the social effects of "validating" canabis as a medecine. So in scientific terms, the jury is still out on that one, but I would say that there is a much more positive mindset from the medical community than ten years ago, and that more research will be appearing over the next decade.

Currently I do a lot of work with MS and paraplegic clients. Some say it helps them, others find it has no beneficial effect, whilst others say it makes them worse.

I also see a lot of people with various stages of alzheimers ....... but they couldnt remember what the question was (sorry, dodgy humour!)

On a more serious note, I can say that currenlty canabis is not considered to be a worthwhile treatment for alzheimers, either in combination with other drugs or as a stand-alone treatment. Maybe this will change in the future if there is robust supporting evidence.

Have to say i agree with you on nearly all the points you've made their lord average.

Good post Lord average. Just a couple of bits I would like to add.

Regarding cannabis leading to harder drugs. I have always found this to be a bit of a scapegoat. My view is that it won't lead on to harder drugs in the sense that it is some kind of evil force, transforming the user from a mild mannered bookworm to a drug fiend junky, as some outlets would like to portray.

However, I think it could lead to harder drugs, purely because it is the most accessible and relatively weaker in effects. I'm sure if you asked most heroin addicts what they tried first, a joint or a beer, they would all say a beer. Following this logic, lager leads to hard drugs. Ridiculous.

Another reason cannabis could lead to harder drugs is lack of education. Most people have been brought up being told ALL drugs are equally as dangerous. No differentiation between them. With that in mind, consider this scenario.

An 18 year old, from a good family, middle class roots, been brought up with people all the same as him. All his knowledge of drugs is that they will mess you up and ruin your life, he has no direct or indirect experience. He goes to uni and a few weeks in, in someone's room in halls, a joint gets past round. He doesn't want to be the odd one out and ostracise himself so he takes it and draws a few puffs and guess what, he likes it!! He feels more relaxed, finds everything funny and wakes up the next day with no ill effects.

So now, because previously he believed ALL drugs were bad and now has had a small experience which was good, he could now believe that actually they are ALL ok.

The next week he goes to a house party and people are smoking crack. Now I'm 99.9999% sure most people here or anyone with a bit of a knowledge of drugs would steer well clear. But this guy now has a new found belief that all drugs are actually alright and that everything he's been told isn't true, so, when it comes to being his turn, he tries it and an addict is born.

I agree with much of what Lord Average has said about canabis being addictive. I recently have had to take a break from par-taking in my favorite form of relaxation, for career reasons. I'm just about six weeks clean, and believe me that was no easy task. It took me about four attempts, at about being a week clean each before i would "relapse" or give in to my desire to smoke again. Now I'm 24 years old I have been smoking since i was 11, for all those slower(stoned) people thats 13 years and just over half my life span. I have notice, that lately i have been easily agitated, have been going through hot and cold spells, twitching, and have been having some really messed up dreams lately. Sometimes I feel like a goddamn crack addict, but i know that its my body and brain going through withdrawls thats causing all this. When you put a substance into you body aslong as i have done, your body is going to crave this. Like Lord Average said the bottom-line in breaking these dependencies is motivation and will-power, and i am doing just that.

P.S. ONE DAY I WILL BE BACK, ITS JUST TEMPORARY

Lord Average wrote:Good Thread

I have to say first off, that I havent done any focused research on cannabis. So my contributions do not have any great authority, they are just musings, and personal beliefs based upon experience.

I work as a health professional, and have a fair bit of knowledge of alzheimers, neurology, psychology, neurosis and psychosis, and have done a lot of research to MSc level in these fields.

I have picked up snippets of both information and opinions along the way, and I have my own experiences and observations that I continue to reflect upon.

So, I would like to throw in a hotch potch of related points and issues, and I am interested to see what peoples perspectives are.


Addiction
There is still a lot of argument about what addiction actually is. The problem is that it is impossible to differentiate between physical and psychological addiction, because both aspects have a strong part to play in addictive behaviour.
The two points to consider are:
1) If people can be addicted to such things as gambling, sex, shoplifting, snowboarding or internet porn, why do people swear blind that smoking canabis is not addictive?
2) Anything that has a strong psychological response combined with an externally administered chemical constituant (ie not produced by the body), and repeated regularly over time, is highly likely to become habitual / addictive.

The point is often made that canabis is habitual rather than addictive, but having gone through a decade of "habitual" canabis use myself, I found it bloody hard to stop smoking it at the end of my 20s. Much harder than giving up tobacco, which I did 6 months before giving up canabis.

Having said that, everyone would recognise that there are other addictions (eg opiates and cocaine) that are far harder to give up. But my own belief is that canabis can definately be addictive, and that whilst many regular users can break the addiction / habit easily, there are many that cant.

The bottom line in habit-breaking is always motivation, and there can be many secondary gains to be had in staying habitually dependent on canabis, that outweigh the benefits of not using it.


Canabis leads on to harder drugs
For sure there is a large percentage of people who use canabis do not use other drugs. I dont know what this percentage is - anyone found a reliable answer to this???

I am convinved that there is a significant (ie a bloody high) number of people that use canabis and have also tried other drugs too. If canabis is seen as the least harmful of drugs, then it can be argued that canabis "leads on to harder drugs" This does not mean that if you smoke canabis you will end up a heroin addict. I know plenty of smokers (myself included) who have never touched heroin, I also know people who's first exposure to any drug was smoking heroin.

BUT my belief is that people who use canabis become more likely to try other drugs (which again was my own experience), and that there is accepted research that says that most heroin users did start their drug taking career with canabis.

Does this mean that smoking canabis makes you more likely to try other drugs ?

And if so, is that because of canabis itself, or is it a human response? where people who have an exploratory side to their charecter, are more likely to seek out other drugs with other effects? Therefore can you say whether the danger is with canabis or human nature?


Psychological Harm
This is very hard to accurately quantify, because there are so many variables at play.

My gut feeling is that regular canabis use is a mixed bag, and that it has both beneficial and harmful psychological effects.

I have worked in psychiatric wards, community mental health centres and as a private practitioner, and I can tell you that there are plenty of people around that are more mentally ill than they would have been because of their canabis use.

I dont want to down play this, because I think its important that people do not get into a state of denial about the fact that canabis can really fuck with your mind to the point where your wellbeing will suffer. Many of these effects can be subtle, and will wear off once you stop smoking. But when you consider that many people cannot (or dont want to) stop smoking, then it becomes a real problem.

The effects that I have seen are, paranoia, reduced self esteem, reduced motivation, reduced attention span, delayed / stunted relationship skills, confusion, disorientation, and elements of poor executive function (ie higher level thinking)

You can also argue that if you want to lead a lifestyle that harmoniously incorporates these effects, then you are not going to be too badly disadvantaged. In other words (as in the film Jackie Brown) "if your only ambition is to get high and watch TV" then regular canabis use is going to support you rather than hinder you.

Again, from my own experience I would say that the worst effects of regular canabis use are suppressed motivation / ambition, and delayed relationship skills. If I hadnt been such a stoner in my teens and twenties, then I would have got off my arse, got better qualifications, and wouldnt be so fucking broke now. Also I would have gone out, communicated with a lot more people and found new ways to develop my relationships rather than simply turning to canabis escapeland whenever the going got tough.

Obviously that is just my own history, and I dont blame canabis for that. But I do feel it had a part to play.


Medical Uses

There is a lot of anecdotal and low level research, but very little "gold standard" research in the medical use of canabis. I feel the reason for this has been political, as governments are very wary about the social effects of "validating" canabis as a medecine. So in scientific terms, the jury is still out on that one, but I would say that there is a much more positive mindset from the medical community than ten years ago, and that more research will be appearing over the next decade.

Currently I do a lot of work with MS and paraplegic clients. Some say it helps them, others find it has no beneficial effect, whilst others say it makes them worse.

I also see a lot of people with various stages of alzheimers ....... but they couldnt remember what the question was (sorry, dodgy humour!)

On a more serious note, I can say that currenlty canabis is not considered to be a worthwhile treatment for alzheimers, either in combination with other drugs or as a stand-alone treatment. Maybe this will change in the future if there is robust supporting evidence.

I would like to start by thanking you for bringing your points to the table in such a well structured way.

I would like to have an attempt at giving my alternative view points on the things you have mentioned.

I will break it down under each section if I may:

Addiction:

While it is hard to differentiate, between psychological and Physical addiction, as far as drugs go, they are all said to have a physical addiction. Marijuana is non-addictive because there is no physical addiction. While it can be argued that a Psycological addiction could actually be more dangerous, in terms that it causes people to want more and take higher and higher doses, because you cannot overdose from Marijuana, the psycological addiction can said to be irrelevant.

When I say Marijuana is non-addictive, I do so in the purest sense of the word, in that all drugs Except marijuana are phsyicaly addictive.

Physical addiction can be easily measured on the body, but again how much of the addiction the user actually has is controlled by the pyhsical, and how much by the psycological? This makes treatment difficult, but with Marijuana, any 'addiction' is 100% psycological, and that is a scientific fact.

Cannabis leads to harder drugs.

This is true, but not in the way it is meant. It is only true because of the way our society is structured. It has nothing to do with Marijuana itself. The only reason most people get into harder drugs is because they come into contact with them through dealers when buying their pot. The illegal trade in Marijuana means you are likely to come into contact with dealers who sell harder drugs, and thats why your more likely to find pot smokers trying harder drugs. By no means are you more pre-disposed to trying the harder drugs. People argue with me "but my friend introduced me to harder drugs it was nothing to do with dealers", but my point stands, the guy got the drug from the dealer because he was also selling it. If the guy never sold harder drugs, he would only ever have bought Marijuana from him. So you don't come into contact with them. This is proven in Holland where because of the clear differentation between the drugs, fewer young people move onto harder drugs than almost any other European country. Marijuana does not turn you into a hard drug user, you choose to do them. If you never meet them, you never have to make the choice.

Pyshcological harm.

I will be going through this indepth later in the article i'm writing up, so won't go into too much here. But there is a point you made, which I want to break down as purely subjective:

Again, from my own experience I would say that the worst effects of regular canabis use are suppressed motivation / ambition, and delayed relationship skills. If I hadnt been such a stoner in my teens and twenties, then I would have got off my arse, got better qualifications, and wouldnt be so fucking broke now.

Suppressed motivation/ambition. You see this as a bad point. I say, that is a good point. The capatilistic world in which we live in thrives on competition, pitting each against the other, wanting people to win, because this divides, it causes everyone to become your rival, rather than your brother.

Marijuana opens your mind to logical and lateral thinking, it makes you realise that the ideals our current modern society hold are not the ideals that are the best for humanity and mankind. Marijuana awakens your spiritual self, and this is presented by a dissatisfaction of your life and the way things are. You interpret it as the fact that you are not where you think you want to be, but the dissatisfaction is actually caused by your spirit being awakened to the true wonder of life, and you are becoming dissillusioned with your life, but you are picking the worng target for your disillusionment. You have to options, either the world and our society is wrong, and is the cause of your problems, or Marijuana is. Guess which one everyone blames.... because its easier to say marijuana is bad, than it is to say the whole world and everything it currently stands for is bad.

But hey thats my view point.

And the great thing is, if you believe what you wrote, then that is true, but if you then decide to believe what I have written, then that is true. Both are right, eventually people will agree or not, and realise that everything is just a point of view, and that right and wrong don't really exist

I am going to get the main write up done now as I'm off to Amsterdam in 2 days, and I'm at work for 12 hours tomorrow, so need to get this up tonight.