Marijuana: Facts and Myths

General discussion about cannabis and coffeeshops.
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Puffin13
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Post by Puffin13 »

Sir Niall of Essex-sire wrote:If it comes to a point were a medical professional recommends you a treatment and you ignore it in favor of Cannabis which is based on,at this point, extremely shakey scientific evidence which is regularly challenged, results interpretated and twisted by pro cannabis organisations and anecdotal evidence. Well, that's something IMO no-one without a want to justify their drug use wouldn't do.

Cannabis does have some medical value, however is it Cancer preventing? Only as much as it's Schizophrenia inducing according to recent studies. In fact, there have been many more studies showing a link to mental illness that Cannabis being a preventive measure against cancer.
You seem to insist on evidence of cannabis' medicinal properties. It is not that difficult to find, if you really want to know. But I am happy to provide the facts to you, if you will view and look at it. This video, in 6 parts, titled CANCER-GATE: Cannabinoid Research & Tribute to Rick Simpson is a radio interview and discussion with Rick Simpson. (You dont even have to listen to the interview, if you dont want to but there is much additional information, provided by Mr Simpson). In the video, there are many references to studies and research that have been done through out the world, with regards to medical cannabis and the countless medical conditions that can be helped or cured...yes cured, with medical marijuana.

Please be so kind as to share your thoughts about the evidence and videos, after you have watched them all. Pot Peace.


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Sir Niall of Essex-sire
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Post by Sir Niall of Essex-sire »

Roots Daughter wrote:I subscribe to no journals, some of your questions make no sense, I never said cannabis was perfect or a cure-all or anything like that... why do you insist that it does no good?

I don't insist it does no harm, which you seem to be implying...

I back up what I say... you rant and make no sense.

Disregard all my sources if you want... if you read them you would see what researchers and Universities Fox News and others are quoting... I'm not posting long articles here. I read studies that say good things and bad things about cannabis, and then I do more research because as I said before, you can't rely on the media for anything except the negative.

You make many insults, accusations and assumptions, but you don't have anything to back up what you say except more insults and more half-baked (if you'll pardon the pun) opinions.

You asked how cannabis is less harmful than Aspirin? My apologies... I assumed that anyone who subscribes to this list would know that Aspirin has a low toxicity level, while the toxicity level of cannabis is theoretically many times a person's body weight. I say theoretically because, unlike Aspirin, no one has ever overdosed from Cannabis. Forgive me for assuming that you knew this.

If you intend to continue ranting and flaming, then this will be my last post to you. If you want to start having an intelligent conversation, it would be my pleasure.
--Roots Daughter
So not answering any of questions regarding standards of evidence or the problems of secondary referencing then?
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Sir Niall of Essex-sire
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Post by Sir Niall of Essex-sire »

Puffin13 wrote: You seem to insist on evidence of cannabis' medicinal properties. It is not that difficult to find, if you really want to know. But I am happy to provide the facts to you, if you will view and look at it. This video, in 6 parts, titled CANCER-GATE: Cannabinoid Research & Tribute to Rick Simpson is a radio interview and discussion with Rick Simpson. (You dont even have to listen to the interview, if you dont want to but there is much additional information, provided by Mr Simpson). In the video, there are many references to studies and research that have been done through out the world, with regards to medical cannabis and the countless medical conditions that can be helped or cured...yes cured, with medical marijuana.

Please be so kind as to share your thoughts about the evidence and videos, after you have watched them all. Pot Peace.
Puffin, i dont say there's no evidence, i question the evidence which is used and the interpretation of that evidence. Os,van,J. et al carried out a longitudinal study which showed a clear link between Cannabis and Psychosis, ' This population-based prospective study showed that abaseline history of cannabis use increased the risk of afollow-up psychosis outcome for subjects with a lifetimeabsence of psychosis, with a dose-response relation betweenexposure load and psychosis outcome.'

Now this one of study shows a positive link between Cannabis use and Psychosis, now rightly aspects of this studies have been criticized, which is fair enough. But when the same is done for the pro-Cannabis studies you get accused of needlessly
Roots Daughter wrote: Disregard[ing] all [the] my sources if you want
It seems ok to take the work of Tashkin for example as being a stand alone proof ( even if it only shows a potential link :roll: ). But, if one is to put another Anti-Cannabis study as stand alone proof you watch the sparks fly ' That study has questionable issues...It doesn't show a 100% link so it can't be true.' Why not, for the love of God, show the same level of scrutiny of the pro Cannabis studies?

Look, Cannabis does have some medical value it stimulates apetite for one, however so does Opiates ( in regards to having medical value not appetite), but if someone can to me asking for help with cancer i wouldn't jack them up a needle. What people need to realise is that the medical science field is extremely complicated, but running into the field waving round a bud saying it helped this person and that person without any scientific study etc. means fuck all in the field.

Rick Simpson, i believe honestly wanted to help people, but am i going to trust the theories of a High School drop out when it comes to my health? If it you took Cannabis out of the equation i doubt you would.

In regards to the interview, not even 20 seconds into the video instead of calling Cannabis Cannabis, they call it the 'miracle plant.' Serious bias problems here.

44 secs in, Simpsons belief in Cannabis is described as 'Faith.' Faith is the unjustified belief in something. I fear this will be the most adequate description of this interview.

1 min in, the presenters farther is having surgury in San Diego, really? She didn't send him to Rick Simpson to cure him with his 'miracle plant?'

2.50 in, the lies start already. Rick Simpson is not an engineer by trade, a engineer requires a qualification, Rick Simpson is a high school drop out who got a job at a steel mill.

5mins in, discussion of Cannabis as a cure for PCS. No study provided, not evidence which goes beyond one persons anecdotal experience. This is completely insignificant in proofing the medical use of any chemical.

5.18, qualification on the cure for PCS. It's not a cure, it allowed sleep to happen. Therefore this changed the claim of cannabis being a cure for PCS into cannabis being a cure for sleep difficulties. Again backed up with no evidence. However this qualification is dangerous as it occurs after the statement it provides the listener potentially, and likely imo, the chance to believe the first claim is true. This is disingenuous in my books.

7.15 in, Simpson claims that Hemp and Marijuana are the same thing. This is patently untrue, Hemp and Marijuana are the same thing in the same way that myself and Pamela Anderson are the same thing. True with are both humans, however she is a girl who looks good in a bathing suit and serves a different purpose to myself. This is disingenuous, wrong and shows a will to assert his own view of Cannabis and make it fact.

7.55 in, Simpson describes how Hemp and Marijuana is a semantic difference because of the scare tactics by the Government. I don't buy this the Governments out to get you justification. The two plants have different chemical make ups, namely a lack of THC, they are therefore two different types of plant as they are two different strains. Again, this is extremely questionable justification of an extremely questionable claim.

8.37 in, Simpson asks ' What's anecdotal about a plant that's been used in medicine for 5000 years.' Because it's all personal accounts not scientific evidence. Here Simpson is citing a time period, still greatly disputed and not also saying that it wasn't a continuous 5000 year period if that number is to be believed, as evidence. Even the biggest Pro-Rick Simpson follower must see there's a huge amount of fault in this.

8.44 in, Presenter chimes in with ' What's anecdotal about all those people you helped.' Seriously, this is laughable, completely laughable. See above point.

8.53, Simpson ' I still have the noise in my head.' I bet you do.

8.55, Simpson, claims Cannabis helps him live with the noise in his head. This is a bit of a strange claim for a 'miracle plant.' Alcohol does this, i bet crack would as well. This doesn't differentiate Cannabis as being a drug that only helps in this incident. Also, does it help him live with it, or does he get so high he forgets about it? This are different things, one is distraction from symptoms the other is a cure. He does not say which it is. This is disappointing.

9.05 to end, more description of his anecdotal experience. Anecdotal evidence, unless carried out other a large amount of people with all the possible other factors that could affect results dealt with is weak evidence.

Granted this is only the first video, but looking at this with a critical mind reveals problems with what he is saying. I'm not saying that Cannabis cannot be a medicine, i'm 100% sure it is for some people, however over stating the medical potential is wrong and offers false hope to people. Also, if wanting to prove medical potential there needs to be evidence shown in studies which goes beyond anecdotal evidence before it is taken seriously.

Medical use of Cannabis is IMO used by many people to justify their consumption of a drug. This is wrong, if you want to smoke weed, smoke it, don't use the smug justification of ' It's a medicine'. You don't need to justify your consumption, it's your body do what you want with it, it's not for anyone else to tell you can or cannot do what you want with it ( within reason.)
Last edited by Sir Niall of Essex-sire on Sun 20th Jun 2010 01:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Sir Niall of Essex-sire »

EDIT : Study i quotes was published in the Journal of American Epidemiology, Vol.156,no.4,2002.

Another interesting note, Simpson has been diagnosed ( by who, we don't know :roll: ) with PCS, Post Concussion Syndrome. A aliment which has no defined conditions and the existence of which is questioned by the medical community. Basically, Simpson has a illness helped by Cannabis ( or does it help him sleep, would be nice if he would of clarified this ) which might not exist.

So Puffin, my assessment of the evidence on the first video, Simpson uses only anecdotal evidence about himself regarding a aliment which may not even exist.

Far from convincing.
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Roots Daughter
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Post by Roots Daughter »

I did a cut and paste of the sources I quoted that Sir Knows-it-all refuses to believe any of...

Of course, his ONE source is far more believable than any of us could ever possibly provide. :roll:

He really needs to educate himself about all drugs, not just cannabis if he thinks that opiates stimulate appetite. (ROTFLMFAO!) :lol: :lol:

My sources:

Effects of cannabis on lung function: a population-based cohort study.
Hancox RJ, Poulton R, Ely M, Welch D, Taylor DR, McLachlan CR, Greene JM, Moffitt TE, Caspi A, Sears MR.

Dunedin School of Medicine, University of Otago, Dunedin, New Zealand.
-------------------------------------------------------------
Donald Tashkin, MD, of UCLA’s David Geffen School of Medicine
-------------------------------------------------------------
rexresearch.com
Hemp & Health by Robert A. NELSON Copyright 1999
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Complutense University in Madrid and published in the April edition of US-published Journal of Clinical Investigation

----------------------------------------------------------

"...the International Conference of the American Thoracic Society (ATS) concluding that smoking marijuana, even long-term, is not positively associated with increased incidence of lung-cancer."

http://www.drugscience.org/Archive/bcr1 ... ntano.html

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dr. Martin Frisher of Keele University

---------------------------------------------------------------------
SOURCE: The Journal of the American Medical Association, April 16, 2003.

--Roots Daughter :D
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Sir Niall of Essex-sire
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Post by Sir Niall of Essex-sire »

Roots Daughter wrote:I did a cut and paste of the sources I quoted that Sir Knows-it-all refuses to believe any of...

Of course, his ONE source is far more believable than any of us could ever possibly provide. :roll:

He really needs to educate himself about all drugs, not just cannabis if he thinks that opiates stimulate appetite. (ROTFLMFAO!) :lol: :lol:

My sources:

Effects of cannabis on lung function: a population-based cohort study.
Hancox RJ, Poulton R, Ely M, Welch D, Taylor DR, McLachlan CR, Greene JM, Moffitt TE, Caspi A, Sears MR.

Dunedin School of Medicine, University of Otago, Dunedin, New Zealand.
-------------------------------------------------------------
Donald Tashkin, MD, of UCLA’s David Geffen School of Medicine
-------------------------------------------------------------
rexresearch.com
Hemp & Health by Robert A. NELSON Copyright 1999
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Complutense University in Madrid and published in the April edition of US-published Journal of Clinical Investigation

----------------------------------------------------------

"...the International Conference of the American Thoracic Society (ATS) concluding that smoking marijuana, even long-term, is not positively associated with increased incidence of lung-cancer."

http://www.drugscience.org/Archive/bcr1 ... ntano.html

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dr. Martin Frisher of Keele University

---------------------------------------------------------------------
SOURCE: The Journal of the American Medical Association, April 16, 2003.

--Roots Daughter :D
My God, you are a silly sausage. Firstly, i've explained what secondary referencing is, you have not provided direct links to the journals, you have provided SECONDARY REFERENCING <<<<<look at this it's an important phase you need to understand.

Again, you have provided me with links to pro-Cannabis sites, mostly summary's of studies which are interpreted by members of pro-Cannabis sites/organisations. Furthermore, and this is important, you rest your argument on such summaries made in 2006, without bother to follow up and see if there is any further work done on these claims. Laughably, your Drug Science link, when you click on the link which relates to the study directs you to a Fox News page, not a specialized medical site at all!

In fact, if you would keep up to date with medical studies and read actual journals rather than websites with a blatent bias for your knowledge you might be aware of the study carried out by S.Aldington et al on behalf of the Medical Research Institude of NZ, accepted in 2007, published in ERS Journels 2008 doi: 10.1183/09031936.00065707. Actually found...

'In conclusion, the results of the present study indicate that long-term cannabis use increases the risk of lung cancer in young adults.'

This study has been used by many publications; ERP, RCCM and BMJ is case reports in addition to the journal.
Of course, his ONE source is far more believable than any of us could ever possibly provide. :roll:
For the love of Christ, you need to step away from your bowl for two seconds to realize the argument i am making. I am addressing basic Philosophical problems with your argument, the questions i am asking you're still ignoring by the way, because it is possible to throw studies back at each other i am asking a simple question about how you reached your conclusion. Because ( this isn't as much of a secret as you think it is ) you have two different standards of evidence, you're disingenuous with what you accept as evidence. Furthermore DC has noticed it, so i think perhaps you should have a look at your argument and perhaps, maybe, if you would be ever so kind, answer the fucking questions i asked? I remain doubtful as of this because it would require a questioning mind as apposed to ' NORML told me this so it must be true.'

Why is my source more respectable than yours, because it's not an example of SECONDARY REFERENCING, all of your studies are. I have given name and references of the journals, your sites link me to Fox News. Now which is more trustworthy, the actual journal text, or an interpretation of it by that well known place for honest, good and completely un-biased journalism that is Fox News?
He really needs to educate himself about all drugs, not just cannabis if he thinks that opiates stimulate appetite. (ROTFLMFAO!) :lol: :lol:


Yes, what an epic fool i would be not to qualify a statment with some type of clarification usually found between two brackets? Hold on..wait a minute..i think i've found something interesting here...
Look, Cannabis does have some medical value it stimulates apetite for one, however so does Opiates ( in regards to having medical value not appetite)
Well look at that, it seems someone who only looks at studies that justify their point of view and only accept evidence which backs up their point of view, read what they wanted to see not what was actually there? I am shocked, and since we're using the kids internet expressions these days..

ROTFLARDFBAEFALLAT

or

Roll on the floor laughing at RootsDaughter for being an epic fail and looking like a tit.
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cant_think
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Post by cant_think »

Niall please read the Keele study - Cannabis and Mental Health, as you seem to really believe weed causes pyschosis, mental health issues are caused by such an array of factors to pinpoint any one thing as a cause is just naive. Yes smoking anything is bad for your lungs, but there is an overwhelming number of university studies that show the medical benefits of cannabis, it is not purely anecdotal. Also you do know that because of it's scheduling in America - it cannot be studied as a medicine. A lot of studies into medicine are funded by pharma companies who have no interest in this plant.
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Post by Sir Niall of Essex-sire »

cant_think wrote:Niall please read the Keele study - Cannabis and Mental Health, as you seem to really believe weed causes pyschosis, mental health issues are caused by such an array of factors to pinpoint any one thing as a cause is just naive. Yes smoking anything is bad for your lungs, but there is an overwhelming number of university studies that show the medical benefits of cannabis, it is not purely anecdotal. Also you do know that because of it's scheduling in America - it cannot be studied as a medicine. A lot of studies into medicine are funded by pharma companies who have no interest in this plant.
Will do, is that the Keele University study.

Be pre-warned man, i will compare this with others and criticize it so please don't too offended when that happens.

Edit : Can't think, is the study relating purely to Schizophrenia?
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Post by Marco »

I love it, Naill throwing down the scientific method. Don't start fights with researchers folks.
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Post by cant_think »

Yes it is Keele University, you will only be able to read the summary for free on the internet, heres a link to a blog with some of it on and links to coverage by various media http://ukcia.org/wordpress/?p=76

I will not be offended, I am never offended by someones opinion, I have only posted this as your opinion seems to be that Cannabis (that might not be your opinion but that is the way it appears to come across) has little or no medical value, which is clearly not true. <<<< I was wrong to say this, as I have read the thread properly (because I read marcos comment about you being a researcher) and this is not what you were saying, you were saying that people should not overstate the medical benefits.
Last edited by cant_think on Mon 21st Jun 2010 03:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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cant_think wrote:Yes it is Keele University, you will only be able to read the summary for free on the internet, heres a link to a blog with some of it on and links to coverage by various media http://ukcia.org/wordpress/?p=76

I will not be offended, I am never offended by someones opinion, I have only posted this as your opinion seems to be that Cannabis (that might not be your opinion but that is the way it appears to come across) has little or no medical value, which is clearly not true.
It's ok man i have access to the Wiley Inter Science journal search, it should be on there. If not i'm near on sure it'll be on the Boston University Center for Psychosocial Rehabilitation journal.

I'll address the points you bring up once i have had a look at that study.
has little or no medical value, which is clearly not true
.
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Post by Sir Niall of Essex-sire »

Apolgies in advance for the up coming post, i fear it would be a long one.

Right, the Keele University study carried out on behalf of the University by members of three departments ( Primary Care Research Center, Academic Psychiatry Unit and Department of Medicine Management.) Concluded, as published in the Schizophrenia Research Journal;
A recent systematic review concluded that cannabis use increases risk of psychotic outcomes independently of confounding and transient intoxication effects. Furthermore, a model of the association between cannabis use and schizophrenia indicated that the incidence and prevalence of schizophrenia would increase from 1990 onwards. The model is based on three factors: a) increased relative risk of psychotic outcomes for frequent cannabis users compared to those who have never used cannabis between 1.8 and 3.1, b) a substantial rise in UK cannabis use from the mid-1970s and c) elevated risk of 20 years from first use of cannabis. This paper investigates whether this has occurred in the UK by examining trends in the annual prevalence and incidence of schizophrenia and psychoses, as measured by diagnosed cases from 1996 to 2005. Retrospective analysis of the General Practice Research Database (GPRD) was conducted for 183 practices in England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland. The study cohort comprised almost 600,000 patients each year, representing approximately 2.3% of the UK population aged 16 to 44. Between 1996 and 2005 the incidence and prevalence of schizophrenia and psychoses were either stable or declining. Explanations other than a genuine stability or decline were considered, but appeared less plausible. In conclusion, this study did not find any evidence of increasing schizophrenia or psychoses in the general population from 1996 to 2005.
Summed up, the study found through the examination of reported cases of Schizophrenia that there was no increase as the Cannabis use is believed to increase.

A couple of points about this first of all regarding the methods. The methods seem not to account for;

1) Mis-diagnosis by GP's. Cases can and are falsely diagnosed as other Mental Health issues, Anxiety disorders. However, false diagnosis works both ways so can be, somewhat convincingly, removed as a major criticism into more of a question.

2) We are relying seemingly on reported cases, what about cases that go un-reported? This again at first seems a strong criticism, but giving the debilitating nature of the illness it would be difficult to say that someone would not report such an illness. However, loners etc. may not have reported the illness and it is at least conceivable that a couple of cases at least could of gone unreported. However, would these couple of cases have changed the results, most likely not, this is were a problem with Quantitative research lies. Unless there is a numerical difference it does not count, however would one case of Cannabis induced Schizophrenia be enough to prove it as true, perhaps, this would of been better represented through Qualitative methods.

These concerns may cause problematic issues for the study, however, are these concerns enough to rubbish the study. Probably not, but, they're enough IMO to warrant a further study and prevent us from hailing this study as 100% prove.

Now, you need to appreciate that my field is Philosophy/Theology, i have studied the Philosophy of Science as apposed to Scientific methods, so my comments may be worded in an distinctly unscientific way. In addition to this, my comments will be based on the Philosophical problems with claiming Cannabis has huge amounts of medical value and in addition that it is a safe substance, particularly in relation to mental health.

Strangely, the mental health debate regarding cannabis has revolved around Schizophrenia. Reasons for this could be;

1) It is the most sensational and therefore is the best for an Anti-Cannabis Government to promote. Delete and impose the words ' Big Pharma Companies' if you wish.

2) It's the most debilitating and most pressing issue.

The first reason i feel relies heavily on many shaky assumptions, the Government is anti-Cannabis for it's own interests for example. While this can be argued, in some examples rather convincingly, to be true. I feel we should deal with solid facts, which i feel that the second issue is the most likely.

Therefore instead of throwing studies that suggest a link between Cannabis and Schizo, which number more in pro-link than anti-link. I will attempt to use other Mental Health issues and the links between Cannabis to show it is not that simple. This is because Cannabis and mental health goes beyond the Schizo link and i think you best find problematic issues when dealing with the issues regarding more common mental illness's. We need to understand that Mental Health goes beyond Schizo. and that we can find a greater number of studies which show both sides of the coin in Anxiety Studies, IMO.

Strangely i will turn to a study i use to illustrate the cause of legalisation, that is the study by Dr Feeny,G. et al in the Princess Alexanda Hospital, Brisbane, Australlia. The Journal entry is titled Cannabis dependence and mental health perception amongst people diverted by police after arrest for cannabis-related offending behaviour in Australia. This study conculded that ;
Their high levels of psychopathology [ in users within the study ] suggest that they are better placed in healthcare rather than the criminal justice system, and that appropriately responsive mental healthcare programmes are needed
This study is interesting because it calls for legalization so cannabis can be treated as a health issue rather than a criminal one, so how can it fall into the category of ' The Big Pharmas made this because...[insert same old argument we've all heard here.] Yet it still finds problematic issues with Cannabis and mental health, in this case Anxiety disorders. Not convinced that Cannabis can be linked to mental illness's? Lets look at another.

A study from Italy concluded;

Frequent cannabis users consistently have a high prevalence of anxiety disorders and patients with anxiety disorders have relatively high rates of cannabis use


Problems with this study are quite obvious, did anxiety cause the use or did use cause the anxiety? I'm not suggesting this proves mental health issues with cannabis, however i am using it in conjunction with the other study to help show there are issues with cannabis and mental health, because a single study showed that there is no link between Cannabis use and rates of reported Schizo. Does not mean it proved no mental health issues. Hell, it doesn't mean it proved no Schizo link, just no reported Schizo link.

The above quote can be found in the Journal Alcholol and Drug Review under the title Cannabis and anxiety: a critical review of the evidence. It was carried out by Crippa,J.A University of Sao Paulo in conjunction with Kings College London, Department of Psychiatry Neuroscience Hospital Clinic Barcelona, Spain.

So, what is the truth of the medical use of Cannabis? For me Costain,W. Sums it up well in his conculsion;
ABSTRACT: This study explored explanatory models used by individuals with schizophrenia in relation to continuing cannabis abuse. Cannabis is known to exacerbate positive symptoms, compound the effects of negative symptoms, and lead to relapse, having a negative effect upon quality of life. If this is so, why would people choose to continue the drug use? Most previous studies exploring this phenomenon have used quantitative methodology where the questions asked have been preset by the researchers and the subjective experience of the patient has been minimized. Qualitative methodology was utilized in this study in order to give voice to the patients' perspectives, and contribute to the knowledge of the frameworks of meanings employed by patients. The majority of participants in this study did not perceive that they had a mental illness and they held strong beliefs regarding the usefulness of cannabis. They gave explanations for their continuing cannabis use that expanded the understanding from previous studies. These included that they sought the drug effects of cannabis use for clarity of voices, control of symptoms, to feel normal, perceived improvement in cognitive function, reduced psychological pain and increased energy. These beliefs may influence a person's adherence with treatment and their future cannabis use. This research has implications for clinical practice as clinicians may lack insight into the importance of the phenomenological beliefs of a person with schizophrenia. This lack of insight by the clinician into the phenomenological beliefs may impact on the development of a therapeutic relationship.
People have strongly held belief Cannabis has a positive impact on their mental health issue. However, this imo is confused with the Euphoria that Cannabis causes, it's not helping your illness, it's making you ok with it and happy. It helps people forget about their problem, not cure it. This incidentally is why i laugh when people say that Medical professionals are only interested in helping symptoms. This is also why i get pissed off and take the piss out of people claiming Cannabis as this cure all substance with no links towards mental health issues, this is far beyond the nice world of sitting down and smoking a joint with your friends, mental health problems are life destroying and by telling people that Cannabis can help them is masking their problem and hurting them in the long run. There is no study which comprehensively proves that Cannabis has links to mental health issues, just as there are none that prove Cannabis has no links to mental health issues. The problem is, that people take this as meaning that there is no link to negative mental health issues while forgetting the other side of the coin. This is dangerous, as there is imo, and actually many others views as well, enough evidence to show at the least some evidence, at the most probability, that Cannabis can be harmful for peoples mental health.

The uncomfortable truth about Medical Cannabis is this, it helps people forget about Chronic Pain, helps people eat and sleep and helps a limited number of chronic lifelong medical problem, Crohns disease being the best example of this. However, it is not a cure all herb, it's simply not. It has dangers, dangers that people should be as aware of as the positive aspects of Cannabis.

Before people start telling me that i am blind to the magic of Cannabis, do me a favor, sign up to a journal site. Do your own research, don't ignore the problematic issues with Cannabis because it flies in the face of your preferred recreational drug, actually look at the research and critics of research by yourself without the interpretor found on a pro-Cannabis site and use your God given free mind to think for yourself. Some people will never be convinced that Cannabis isn't a 100% safe and wonderful substance, i think this is because they feel the need to justify their consumption in some way. But, don't mistake your want of justification as actual scientific evidence.

Cannabis is not the evil weed some media sources want to portray, it is not the benign substance the other side of the coin want to portray. It's truth, as with everything in the world, is in the grey areas. It can be helpful, equally it can be dangerous. Not enough is known to claim either way, i am not rubbishing Cannabis as a medical substance, i am saying you people claiming it is a useful one for a wide range of illness's are wrong. You are. I know that is blunt, but some of you don't seem to get it when it's pointed out nicely. You do not have enough evidence to claim that it is. That's why the reasonable thing to do is to cast doubt and continue to study until we have enough evidence to prove either way.
Although there has been considerable research into the adverse effects of cannabis, less attention has been directed toward subjective effects that may be associated with ongoing cannabis use. Examination of self-reported cannabis effects is an important issue in understanding the widespread use of cannabis. While reviews have identified euphoria as a primary factor in maintaining cannabis use, relaxation is the effect reported most commonly in naturalistic studies of cannabis users, irrespective of the method used. Self-reported effects in 12 naturalistic and 18 laboratory studies were compared. Regardless of methodology there was considerable variation in the effects experienced. Variation has been reported in terms of opposite effects being experienced by different individuals, variation of effects by individuals within a single occasion and between occasions of use. Factors that might explain this variation are outlined. Limitations of the available literature and suggested directions for future research are discussed.
Green,B. et al, Being stoned: a review of self-reported cannabis effects, The Drug and Alcohol review Journal.

My point illustrated here is that the effects of Cannabis vary HUGELY, anecdotal evidence is not enough. If you react badly to Cannabis don't assume that it's the same for everyone, the same works for medical use.

Be safe, use your mind to think freely and don't rely on interpretors to tell you what you should think, make the effort to do it yourself, the you'll no for sure.
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Post by cant_think »

Sir Niall, I want to give you a similar length reply (and think you probably deserve it considering the effort you must have put into that last post), but unfortunately I cannot motivate myself to write something of that length. I would love to have a debate on these issues with you in person if we ever happen to be in Amsterdam at the same time. So that's me out of this thread...
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Puffin13
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Post by Puffin13 »

Sir Niall of Essex-sire wrote:
Puffin13 wrote: You seem to insist on evidence of cannabis' medicinal properties. It is not that difficult to find, if you really want to know. But I am happy to provide the facts to you, if you will view and look at it. This video, in 6 parts, titled CANCER-GATE: Cannabinoid Research & Tribute to Rick Simpson is a radio interview and discussion with Rick Simpson. (You dont even have to listen to the interview, if you dont want to but there is much additional information, provided by Mr Simpson). In the video, there are many references to studies and research that have been done through out the world, with regards to medical cannabis and the countless medical conditions that can be helped or cured...yes cured, with medical marijuana.

Please be so kind as to share your thoughts about the evidence and videos, after you have watched them all. Pot Peace.
Puffin, i dont say there's no evidence, i question the evidence which is used and the interpretation of that evidence. Os,van,J. et al carried out a longitudinal study which showed a clear link between Cannabis and Psychosis, ' This population-based prospective study showed that abaseline history of cannabis use increased the risk of afollow-up psychosis outcome for subjects with a lifetimeabsence of psychosis, with a dose-response relation betweenexposure load and psychosis outcome.'

Now this one of study shows a positive link between Cannabis use and Psychosis, now rightly aspects of this studies have been criticized, which is fair enough. But when the same is done for the pro-Cannabis studies you get accused of needlessly
Roots Daughter wrote: Disregard[ing] all [the] my sources if you want
It seems ok to take the work of Tashkin for example as being a stand alone proof ( even if it only shows a potential link :roll: ). But, if one is to put another Anti-Cannabis study as stand alone proof you watch the sparks fly ' That study has questionable issues...It doesn't show a 100% link so it can't be true.' Why not, for the love of God, show the same level of scrutiny of the pro Cannabis studies?

Look, Cannabis does have some medical value it stimulates apetite for one, however so does Opiates ( in regards to having medical value not appetite), but if someone can to me asking for help with cancer i wouldn't jack them up a needle. What people need to realise is that the medical science field is extremely complicated, but running into the field waving round a bud saying it helped this person and that person without any scientific study etc. means fuck all in the field.

Rick Simpson, i believe honestly wanted to help people, but am i going to trust the theories of a High School drop out when it comes to my health? If it you took Cannabis out of the equation i doubt you would.

In regards to the interview, not even 20 seconds into the video instead of calling Cannabis Cannabis, they call it the 'miracle plant.' Serious bias problems here.

44 secs in, Simpsons belief in Cannabis is described as 'Faith.' Faith is the unjustified belief in something. I fear this will be the most adequate description of this interview.

1 min in, the presenters farther is having surgury in San Diego, really? She didn't send him to Rick Simpson to cure him with his 'miracle plant?'

2.50 in, the lies start already. Rick Simpson is not an engineer by trade, a engineer requires a qualification, Rick Simpson is a high school drop out who got a job at a steel mill.

5mins in, discussion of Cannabis as a cure for PCS. No study provided, not evidence which goes beyond one persons anecdotal experience. This is completely insignificant in proofing the medical use of any chemical.

5.18, qualification on the cure for PCS. It's not a cure, it allowed sleep to happen. Therefore this changed the claim of cannabis being a cure for PCS into cannabis being a cure for sleep difficulties. Again backed up with no evidence. However this qualification is dangerous as it occurs after the statement it provides the listener potentially, and likely imo, the chance to believe the first claim is true. This is disingenuous in my books.

7.15 in, Simpson claims that Hemp and Marijuana are the same thing. This is patently untrue, Hemp and Marijuana are the same thing in the same way that myself and Pamela Anderson are the same thing. True with are both humans, however she is a girl who looks good in a bathing suit and serves a different purpose to myself. This is disingenuous, wrong and shows a will to assert his own view of Cannabis and make it fact.

7.55 in, Simpson describes how Hemp and Marijuana is a semantic difference because of the scare tactics by the Government. I don't buy this the Governments out to get you justification. The two plants have different chemical make ups, namely a lack of THC, they are therefore two different types of plant as they are two different strains. Again, this is extremely questionable justification of an extremely questionable claim.

8.37 in, Simpson asks ' What's anecdotal about a plant that's been used in medicine for 5000 years.' Because it's all personal accounts not scientific evidence. Here Simpson is citing a time period, still greatly disputed and not also saying that it wasn't a continuous 5000 year period if that number is to be believed, as evidence. Even the biggest Pro-Rick Simpson follower must see there's a huge amount of fault in this.

8.44 in, Presenter chimes in with ' What's anecdotal about all those people you helped.' Seriously, this is laughable, completely laughable. See above point.

8.53, Simpson ' I still have the noise in my head.' I bet you do.

8.55, Simpson, claims Cannabis helps him live with the noise in his head. This is a bit of a strange claim for a 'miracle plant.' Alcohol does this, i bet crack would as well. This doesn't differentiate Cannabis as being a drug that only helps in this incident. Also, does it help him live with it, or does he get so high he forgets about it? This are different things, one is distraction from symptoms the other is a cure. He does not say which it is. This is disappointing.

9.05 to end, more description of his anecdotal experience. Anecdotal evidence, unless carried out other a large amount of people with all the possible other factors that could affect results dealt with is weak evidence.

Granted this is only the first video, but looking at this with a critical mind reveals problems with what he is saying. I'm not saying that Cannabis cannot be a medicine, i'm 100% sure it is for some people, however over stating the medical potential is wrong and offers false hope to people. Also, if wanting to prove medical potential there needs to be evidence shown in studies which goes beyond anecdotal evidence before it is taken seriously.

Medical use of Cannabis is IMO used by many people to justify their consumption of a drug. This is wrong, if you want to smoke weed, smoke it, don't use the smug justification of ' It's a medicine'. You don't need to justify your consumption, it's your body do what you want with it, it's not for anyone else to tell you can or cannot do what you want with it ( within reason.)
Sir Niall, you wanted to see the evidence and the research and I was glad to supply you with them in the 6 Cancer Gate videos from YouTube. But I guess you didnt really want to see it as you only response was to nitpik at Rick Simpson and what he says. You did not comment at all on the scientific research and there was a lot of it featured in the videos. Did you watch the other 5 vids?

If you can still call 5000 years of cannabis as a medicine "anecdotal", how many years does it take for you to accept that it is not anecdotal? Another 5000 years perhaps? :lol: If you are waiting for the World Health Organization to approve it or waiting until cannabis is available in it's pure form on the NHS, I have a feeling you will be waiting a very long time. Maybe your children's children will see it but I doubt you will.

You ask for research but when it is provided and you dont even look at it, has me questioning your real motive for being anti-cannabis medicine.
Cannabis is The Tree of Life
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Roots Daughter
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Post by Roots Daughter »

Sir Nills doesn't accept "secondary referencing"... which is virtually everything on the world wide web.

So much for the best research tool in the world!

Pre-internet, now that's when it was easier for folks in charge to pull the wool over our eyes because finding out the truth was so much more difficult.

Not like now.
:)
--Roots Daughter
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