US 2020 Election Prediction

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Nuggz
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Re: US 2020 Election Prediction

Post by Nuggz »

KeyMonCha wrote: Sat 25th Jul 2020 10:01 am
macky wrote: Fri 24th Jul 2020 10:01 pm There is no liberals in Democratic Party there 1980 republicans not sure where there going next ?
100% True! "The Left" are no more Liberal than "The Right" are Conservative... Ignorance has muddied the waters to such a degree that the word Liberal itself is becoming an insult to some...

The Democratic party in the US are Centre Right, and have been since the 80's... Pro-War, anti-abortionist, god-botherers on both sides, trying to score points rather than form policy, and continue to divide the people...

...The people seem happy with this state of affairs.

The US is Fucked since it has allowed the one thing people could respect about them to be abused (the Constitution), and the "Patriots" only seem to care about that if it supports their side, i.e. We can march on city hall with guns to demand an end to lock-down, but peaceful protests about police brutality can be met with hellfire, since one or two of them smashed glass and did some graffiti?!?!

Life, Liberty and Freedom, My Arse!!!

Unfortunately, my own country has been affected by US propaganda due to the prevalence of Facefook and twatter, and we now have Pro-Trump, Flat-Earth, Anti-Vaxx, Qanon shite popping up over here, mostly in highly uneducated communities, but occasionally people with some underlying psychological issues get caught up in it and it can cause huge issues for people and their families.

The governments have won... The masses are under control.

Fuck, i was going to ignore this shit, but i just couldn't....

Sick of Liberals getting the blame... We're still the majority, you know... And i was silent, up until now!

...But, anyway;

....Just thought i'd post this to help some whose definitions are a little confused!

liberal /ˈlɪb(ə)r(ə)l/

1. willing to respect or accept behaviour or opinions different from one's own; open to new ideas.
"liberal views towards divorce"

2.(of education) concerned with broadening a person's general knowledge and experience, rather than with technical or professional training.
"the provision of liberal adult education"
Well said...


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DjShaggy
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Re: US 2020 Election Prediction

Post by DjShaggy »

DeLekkersteNUGS16 wrote: Sat 25th Jul 2020 09:49 am .

This thread is fucking cancer

Fact
ignoring spellcheck since 1986
macky
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Re: US 2020 Election Prediction

Post by macky »

DjShaggy wrote: Sat 25th Jul 2020 11:41 am
DeLekkersteNUGS16 wrote: Sat 25th Jul 2020 09:49 am .

This thread is fucking cancer

Fact
There’s a cancer in this world and it’s not this thread ...regulations on social media platforms needed ..
But alas money in US Congress by lobbyist has made another thing impossible :D
If any country EU try and clip there wings ..Trump threatens them wth retaliation around and around it goes :D
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OneHighMofo
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Re: US 2020 Election Prediction

Post by OneHighMofo »

DeLekkersteNUGS16 wrote: Sat 25th Jul 2020 09:49 am This thread is fucking cancer
Why? I’m curious.
Flemish
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Re: US 2020 Election Prediction

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Murder Not Foul!
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Re: US 2020 Election Prediction

Post by free_phil_spector »

macky wrote: Sat 25th Jul 2020 12:22 pmregulations on social media platforms needed
This is a massive part of the problem. In the late 90s, when the internet really started becoming 'a thing', a friend of mine said they should market it with the slogan "bringing weirdos together". It's done worse than that - it's brought unpleasant arseholes together. And, for the moment, they've taken over. Insulting them won't change their minds. I've no idea what will, but calling them thick racists just makes them dig their heels in even more. We saw it here in the aftermath of the brexit vote. The more the remainers tried to point out how fucked up it is, the more they insisted they want it.
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Re: US 2020 Election Prediction

Post by OneHighMofo »

While I agree with some of what's said here, there are some sentiments expressed that I find surprising.

I understand that it's impossible to get a true measure of someones opinion on divisive matters from a few written paragraphs, so if I'm wide of the mark here I apologise in advance - but whether my assumptions are correct or not, I'd just like to add some perspective from the centre ground. Because I feel strongly that perspective is almost entirely missing from the narrative. Not just here - but in the mainstream media, on social media and in most of the polemic discussion I hear and see almost everywhere.
free_phil_spector wrote: You need to realise what the motivation is for most of his supporters: spite. The more he annoys people they don't like ("the liberals") the more they like him. They know he's a lunatic. But they don't care because he "owns the libs". In a nutshell Trump is revenge for Obama. Huge swathes of the USA (ie those in the boonies with shooters who are convinced to this day that "the commies are coming to get us") were seriously fucking pissed off that a black man got elected into the White House. Trump is their payback. And the more egregious his behaviour gets, the more they like him.
Really? You're prepared to express the opinion that a majority (you said 'most') of Trump voters are spiteful rednecks that fantasise about shooting people?
free_phil_spector wrote: Look at who you're dealing with: most of them are spiteful, insular, unpleasant people who's number one concern in life is to preserve their right to own a firearm. They dont give a fuck about social injustice, universal healthcare or black people being murdered by the police.
Again. Really? A majority of Trump voters 'dont give a fuck about social injustice, universal healthcare or black people being murdered by the police.'
Do you know them all personally? Perhaps you've taken a particularly thorough poll that I don't yet know about?

There's some truth in much of what you've said here FPS but there is very little of your diatribe fits within the description of liberal that KMC presented in this same thread.
KeyMonCha wrote: Sat 25th Jul 2020 10:01 am liberal /ˈlɪb(ə)r(ə)l/
1. willing to respect or accept behaviour or opinions different from one's own; open to new ideas.
"liberal views towards divorce"
Perhaps your idea of respect and acceptance is different to mine. I've been a member of a couple of debate clubs and was taught that the central tenet of debate club is "Have some respect for your opponent. Otherwise you don't deserve your place at the debate table".

I should hope that's a good mantra for any successful liberal to follow, but I don't see a lot of respect in your opinions for Trump voters. Many of which (much the same as Tory voters here in the UK) I'm absolutely positive (because I know plenty personally) are good people. Good people that I just happen to disagree with.

Some of them are prejudiced arseholes sure. That's true (because humans) - but in civilised society I would have thought by now (especially given current events in the US) that we might have learned that grouping people together and evaluating their societal value, or making baseless assumptions about their character based on the behaviour of the worst people in any given group is a fundamental wrong turn.
We have a name for it: bigotry - and it's always ugly, whether you're punching up, down, left or right. It's always ugly. And it's never ok.

Part of me says that as a person striving to see difficult issues from both sides of the narrative because the current narrative seems to be happening only at the extreme edges of the debate - with divisive rhetoric being flung from both the left and right. Personally I think that's myopic at best. Idiotic is probably closer. But I'm trying not to express that. Like you - I probably fail sometimes. Especially when faced with wilful ignorance.

But I'm trying. Because it's important.

A bigger part of me knows that in the nearly 50 years I've been alive, there's never been a example of a debate being won by insulting an opponent. Never.
You say with apparent surprise that:
free_phil_spector wrote: Insulting them won't change their minds. I've no idea what will, but calling them thick racists just makes them dig their heels in even more.
Which makes me wonder why, if you feel so strongly about the issue, you're apparently making no attempt at all to embody this notion?

I don't mean to pick unnecessarily at you in particular - I'd like to think (at least I hope) that you're not a bigot and that your opinions are more nuanced than those you've presented here. I know it's hard to express generosity when people seem so far from your own position. God knows I've said similar things myself.
But I'm trying - because it's important.

KeyMonCha you said:
KeyMonCha wrote: Sat 25th Jul 2020 10:01 am i.e. We can march on city hall with guns to demand an end to lock-down, but peaceful protests about police brutality can be met with hellfire, since one or two of them smashed glass and did some graffiti?!?!
Maybe your idea of 'one or two' and 'peaceful protests' is different to mine, but I fail to see how a bunch of kids smashing cities up, dragging innocents from cars and murdering civilians, police officers and children alike can possibly be labelled as peaceful? I'm terrified that someone so moderate as your good-self might consider police action in these circumstances as unacceptable. Perhaps I've misunderstood your sentiment?

Macky - you said:
macky wrote: Sat 25th Jul 2020 12:22 pm There’s a cancer in this world and it’s not this thread ...regulations on social media platforms needed ..
While I agree that social media has a major part to play in the outrage machine that drives much of the divisive rhetoric and continues to dement and stir the pot. And while I admit to exploring similar thoughts myself. Having given it a lot of thought I cannot condone or support the idea of suppression of ideas through 'big-government' regulation and censorship, no matter how egregious.
The extremists MUST have chance to voice their bigotry. Because I like my bigots where I can see them so that I can rationalise with them and keep my eye on them. Silencing their voices is the best way to drive them underground and make them more powerful - it plays directly into their narrative of being an oppressed class. It's a mistake.

In fact. I'd wager that the leftists distaste of those on the right is one of the primary driving factors behind Trump being voted to power. As others here have surmised - Trump was a big fuck you those in power and those who voted them in - but also it was a big fuck you to the snobs that believe their opinions to be better than others.
We see similar things here in the UK in the rise of organisations like the EDL being formed around the suppression of people like Tommy Robinson being media silenced for having strong views about organised Muslim rape gangs. Many people knew he was right about the rape-gangs (and now the police reports are coming out he's been proved right), but no-one on the left (or right for the most part) had anything other than insults for him (perhaps justified in some senses - the man is certainly no stranger to using his fists rather than his words) but consequently his organisation rose to meteoric levels and led to societal unrest. It's a simple formula. Silenced people get angry. And perhaps rightly so.

In summary, and related to how I feel about Macky's suggestion of regulation - I feel strongly that the single biggest mistake being made 'on the left' at the moment is the snobbish, self-centred idea that their opinion is the only valid opinion.
It's a hugely disappointing radical disease that's infected the left and rendered it deeply hypocritical. When I was growing up - those on the left were considered the fair and balanced counter to the tendency to tyranny of the corporatist right. I only see the opposite now. They act more like fascits than the far-right do - and that's terrifying.

There's no room for the centre ground, seemingly there's only the leftist opinion - anything else is labelled as fascist, evil or both. And that's more dangerous for society than anything the largely and rightly ignored far-right can muster.

The only antidote to bad communication is more and better communication. FACT.

People have to learn how to choose better words. Have some generosity towards their opponents. Learn something, build bridges. If they don't want to see the world burn - it's theirs and yours societal responsibility.
I'm trying. Because it's important.
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KeyMonCha
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Re: US 2020 Election Prediction

Post by KeyMonCha »

OneHighMofo wrote: Sat 25th Jul 2020 08:59 pm
KeyMonCha wrote: Sat 25th Jul 2020 10:01 am liberal /ˈlɪb(ə)r(ə)l/
1. willing to respect or accept behaviour or opinions different from one's own; open to new ideas.
"liberal views towards divorce"
Perhaps your idea of respect and acceptance is different to mine. I've been a member of a couple of debate clubs and was taught that the central tenet of debate club is "Have some respect for your opponent. Otherwise you don't deserve your place at the debate table".

I should hope that's a good mantra for any successful liberal to follow, but I don't see a lot of respect in your opinions for Trump voters.
(*edit - just noticed that this reply wasn't aimed at me, but I'll leave it in!.... Forgive me for not reading it correctly, but it was late and I was smashed! :mrgreen: )

Firstly, regarding the definition; a 'willingness' to respect, Or accept Behaviour, does not mean that i am capable of respecting a certain behaviour or opinion. It also, in no way reflects on my overall respect for the person displaying said opinion or behaviour.

I also enjoy a good debate, and spent a significant amount of time discussing religion, to which i am vehemently opposed, with college friends; some of whom were incredibly devout, and still maintain excellent friendships with, despite my thoughts on some of their behaviours and opinions... I would trust them with my life.
OneHighMofo wrote: Sat 25th Jul 2020 08:59 pm
KeyMonCha you said:
KeyMonCha wrote: Sat 25th Jul 2020 10:01 am i.e. We can march on city hall with guns to demand an end to lock-down, but peaceful protests about police brutality can be met with hellfire, since one or two of them smashed glass and did some graffiti?!?!
Maybe your idea of 'one or two' and 'peaceful protests' is different to mine, but I fail to see how a bunch of kids smashing cities up, dragging innocents from cars and murdering civilians, police officers and children alike can possibly be labelled as peaceful? I'm terrified that someone so moderate as your good-self might consider police action in these circumstances as unacceptable. Perhaps I've misunderstood your sentiment?
Whoa now, Tex.... :shock: :lol:

...Kinda took me out of context there, mof'! ...I may have over-simplified and understated that, but the context was based simply in regards to when certain people stand up for the constitution like it's the word of God himself, yet seem to be suspiciously quiet if it's not their team on the defensive... Maybe i should have used a better example... Shit, there's plenty of 'em... Pick your policy!

....To be honest, maybe i shouldn't have alluded to ALL trump supporters being in the same group as flat-earthers, etc; and i didn't really mean the bit about the constitution being the ONLY thing you could respect about the US... Sorry, ya yankee bastards! :D


OHMF; Can you mark it tonight, so i can get my grade in the morning? :wink: :D
Last edited by KeyMonCha on Sun 26th Jul 2020 01:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: US 2020 Election Prediction

Post by free_phil_spector »

OneHighMofo wrote: Sat 25th Jul 2020 08:59 pm I understand that it's impossible to get a true measure of someones opinion on divisive matters from a few written paragraphs, so if I'm wide of the mark here I apologise in advance
No apology needed. I'm a big boy :)

OneHighMofo wrote: Sat 25th Jul 2020 08:59 pmReally? You're prepared to express the opinion that a majority (you said 'most') of Trump voters are spiteful rednecks that fantasise about shooting people?
I was generalising and you're right to pick me up on that. I shouldn't have done it. Of course not all Trump supporters are gun-toting rednecks. But I'd wager pretty much all gun-toting rednecks are Trump supporters. And that's an awful lot of votes. My point on that being: don't think they've all gone away or changed their minds. They're still out there and ready to vote for him again.
OneHighMofo wrote: Sat 25th Jul 2020 08:59 pmAgain. Really? A majority of Trump voters 'dont give a fuck about social injustice, universal healthcare or black people being murdered by the police.'
Do you know them all personally? Perhaps you've taken a particularly thorough poll that I don't yet know about?
No offence but using the "have you asked them all?" line is a cheap shot. Of course I haven't. I can only go by my own experiences and the discourse I have with my friends and that I see on social media. And I'm yet to 'meet' a single Trump supporter who thinks (for example) that the BLM movement is a good thing. Most of them them seem to think it's black people 'getting above their station'. It's a mindset. And not a very nice one.

Yes people are entitled to their own opinions and shouldn't be vilified for it. I just don't want people who think like that running the show. It always ends badly.
OneHighMofo wrote: Sat 25th Jul 2020 08:59 pm liberal /ˈlɪb(ə)r(ə)l/
1. willing to respect or accept behaviour or opinions different from one's own; open to new ideas.
"liberal views towards divorce"
But these are not new ideas are they? They're the same ideas (borne of intolerance and fear of 'the others') that time and again throughout history have led to dictatorships and all manner of nastiness that comes with it - in one case, the mass murder of six million people. Am I open to 'new ideas' like that? No. In fact I'm reminded of the heartbreaking interview with a German lady on The World at War who wept as she recalled seeing her beloved (Jewish) next door neighbour being carted off to a death camp: "I felt so guilty that I had not stood up and opposed this when I had the chance. But by then it was too late for people like me to do anything."

OneHighMofo wrote: Sat 25th Jul 2020 08:59 pmI should hope that's a good mantra for any successful liberal to follow, but I don't see a lot of respect in your opinions for Trump voters. Many of which (much the same as Tory voters here in the UK) I'm absolutely positive (because I know plenty personally) are good people. Good people that I just happen to disagree with.
Well, like you, I'm trying. I don't take such a polarised stance when discussing this in person with my Trump-supporting friends as obviously you can't win people over that way. But I was a bit more robust in posting here because I (surely correctly?) assumed that as stoners most of us on here would not hold much truck for Trump. Plus it's sometimes hard to be as subtle as you'd wish to be online (especially after a smoke).

OneHighMofo wrote: Sat 25th Jul 2020 08:59 pmSome of them are prejudiced arseholes sure. That's true (because humans) - but in civilised society I would have thought by now (especially given current events in the US) that we might have learned that grouping people together and evaluating their societal value, or making baseless assumptions about their character based on the behaviour of the worst people in any given group is a fundamental wrong turn.
We have a name for it: bigotry - and it's always ugly, whether you're punching up, down, left or right. It's always ugly. And it's never ok.
Yes I agree it's wrong to generalise but as I said up there I can only go by my own experiences. I'm around the same age as you (judging by your 'almost 50 years' remark - yeah I'm three years off that terrifying milestone myself) and in my 20s I spent a lot of time on road trips through the Deep South. To quote Bill Hicks, "you meet some serious pockets of humanity". I once spent a night in Centerville, Texas. A quick google shows that even now there are fewer than 900 people living there. I was absolutely stunned to hear how loosely the N-word was thrown around in the local bar that night. Even the spattering of black people in there weren't batting an eyelid about it. In Subway, when we told the guy serving us that we were from London, he looked at my friend and I like we'd just been beamed down from outer space. He simply couldn't comprehend that someone from London would travel to Texas just for the fun of it. Another guy in the bar, prob late 60s - when we told him we'd flown in to New York and then got a flight down to Houston, he said "New York? I'd sure like to go there one day". It's a four hour flight that (back then) cost 50 bucks. But to him it was a trip of a lifetime that he couldn't even aspire to.

Yes I'm generalising. Yes I'm being unkind, ungracious and using the sort of tone that wins no one over. But that's the bulk of yer Trump supporters right there. And to get back to the point of this thread - they ain't gone away.

OneHighMofo wrote: Sat 25th Jul 2020 08:59 pmI don't mean to pick unnecessarily at you in particular - I'd like to think (at least I hope) that you're not a bigot and that your opinions are more nuanced than those you've presented here. I know it's hard to express generosity when people seem so far from your own position. God knows I've said similar things myself.
No offence taken whatsoever. I agreed with your general thrust. We're in a shitshow and I don't pretend for one minute to have the answer as to a way out. But people have learned nothing from the last four years if they think Biden is a shoo-in for this election.
It's so easy to laugh, it's so easy to hate - it takes guts to be gentle and kind...
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KeyMonCha
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Re: US 2020 Election Prediction

Post by KeyMonCha »

Actually, this is all quite telling...

...No one quite goes after the 'Left', like the 'Left'! :roll: :lol:

...We cannibalise ourselves in a way i rarely see those on the Right doing.

...This is why the Right are winning the arguments.
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Re: US 2020 Election Prediction

Post by ed the head »

KeyMonCha wrote: Sun 26th Jul 2020 12:07 am Actually, this is all quite telling...

...No one quite goes after the 'Left', like the 'Left'! :roll: :lol:

...We cannibalise ourselves in a way i rarely see those on the Right doing.

...This is why the Right are winning the arguments.
because the neo right has only one 'value' - 'winning' it all, at any cost and by any means
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Re: US 2020 Election Prediction

Post by free_phil_spector »

KeyMonCha wrote: Sun 26th Jul 2020 12:07 am...We cannibalise ourselves in a way i rarely see those on the Right doing.
I think both sides do it. The NF, BNP, Combat 18, Ukip - they all imploded cos of internal strife. Tories and Labour are also permanently split (Tories over 'Europe', Labour over idealists or those who want to be in government).
It's so easy to laugh, it's so easy to hate - it takes guts to be gentle and kind...
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Re: US 2020 Election Prediction

Post by KeyMonCha »

free_phil_spector wrote: Sun 26th Jul 2020 01:53 am
KeyMonCha wrote: Sun 26th Jul 2020 12:07 am...We cannibalise ourselves in a way i rarely see those on the Right doing.
I think both sides do it. The NF, BNP, Combat 18, Ukip - they all imploded cos of internal strife. Tories and Labour are also permanently split (Tories over 'Europe', Labour over idealists or those who want to be in government).
Yeah, i agree that both sides do it, but as i stated, it seems far rarer... You mentioned specific groups, but i'm talking in the general population, like here!

Interestingly, i read a report of a survey undertaken by some apparently independent researchers, that counted the number of positive/negative reports in the mainstream British media regarding the conservatives and labour in the last election. Labour received an immense amount of negative press when compared to the Tory's... It wasn't even close. Considering the UK media is much maligned for being 'liberal', it's interesting to see how even the Guardian and the 'Impartial' BBC, both focused their ire on Corbyn, antisemitism, sexism, etc, in the Labour party, whilst mostly ignoring the car crash that was the Conservative platform... Both sides wanted Corbyn gone... Which is why i voted for him!

Couldn't find the exact report, but this one has some data; https://www.lboro.ac.uk/news-events/gen ... /report-1/ (see, Section 5.1, & 5.2)
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Re: US 2020 Election Prediction

Post by macky »

Wow this threads took off :D Regulation of facebook etc. Is not about suppressing anyone’s free speech or there right to talk nonsense . But there’s is huge money behind disinformation..there is no rules like newspapers e.g. sue them .
It’s the Wild West . The Sinclair group was given a monopoly on local news by Trump disregarding the rules ,because there right wing and willing to push anything made up by republicans. Trump has his own right wing TV station worse then fox :shock:
There mixed in with press pool ,he calls on them to frame there ? To fit his made up reality. Hard to argue with people who are being indoctrinated . Half of them believe people walked with dinosaurs for fuck .......
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Re: US 2020 Election Prediction

Post by Flemish »

At least his RETARD RALLIES are on hold.
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