Dutch St. Nick Met by Anti-Blackface Protest; 90 Arrested

[Yossarian22]

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0381707/reviews

So black people doing white people is comedy but blackface is just racist. Come on world, serious.

How do you portray black people if your white and you don't colour your skin?

If ya don't your costume is pretty shit.

Whiteface isn't racist because there's no history of black racists using whiteface to systematically dehumanize whites. Blackface is not just putting on makeup; it's part of a long tradition of minstrel shows that portrayed blacks as stupid, slovenly and childlike and thus justified slavery and colonialism. And before anyone claims that this is US-specific, it's not; this kind of tradition was present in every colonialist European country(France, UK, Spain, Portugal, Belgium, Netherlands, Germany.)

As to how do you portray black people if you're white: you don't. There are plenty of black actors around who would be happy to take the role(assuming of course it's not a minstrel one.) If the Netherlands wants to maintain the Zwarte Piet tradition, they should either get black actors to do it or make it look like soot(that's the official excuse; Zwarte Piet is zwarte because he goes down chimneys. If that's so, why are his clothes spotless but his face covered in black paint?)

[Slip & Sal]

But if Michael Jordan is my hero and I paint my white skin black too portray him better, I am just a racist or I never should do that?

[Alo]

Tropic thunder. White actor wearing makeup and I thought was funny as.

White people were slaves before Africans.
Look at what Ireland was before there was a English king.
First Irish slave was in 1600.
First black slave 1645
A lot of Asians to this day are slaves.
Every race has it problems. Jews for example.
It's been long enough now and a lot of issues don't happen anymore.

[Kermit]

Takes the piss tbh, people who ain't stupid know what racism is, this is not racism no matter how people twist it, fuck are we gonna loose the colour Black? Coz its well erm black and lets be honest, how many real Black people u know? None coz no cunt on the planet is the colour black naturally, got more chance in seeing an alien.

When racist card goes wrong, I think.

[Yossarian22]

But if Michael Jordan is my hero and I paint my white skin black too portray him better, I am just a racist or I never should do that?

There is no reason to wear blackface. Whether you were intentionally being racist or not, blackface is inherently racist. Just. Don't. Do. It.

White people were slaves before Africans.

This is the kind of argument that makes sense if you know just a tidbit of history but is absolutely idiotic if you have any real understanding of it. Yes, slavery existed before the colonization of Africa. However, modern(as in, black slavery) was unique in history for its barbarity and its racial component. Previously, slavery was seen as a result of conquest; if your tribe/kingdom got conquered, the conquerers would take slaves. Slavery was seen as a temporary condition brought about by ill fortune. Black slavery, however, posited that blacks were subhuman and were inherently fit to be used as beasts of burden. This dehumanization of black people took strength from pseudo-scientific theories like phrenology, giving it the sheen of erudition, and through popular portrayals, through blackface and minstrel shows, which portrayed blacks as childlike, craven and stupid. This is unlike any other form of slavery in history. Plus, the Middle Passage was equalled only by the Holocaust and the Belgian Congo in terms of atrocities.

And in any event, the fact that Jews or Irishmen suffered terribly does not justify engaging in a racist practice which dehumanizes black people.

It's been long enough now and a lot of issues don't happen anymore.

No, this is false. Slavery may have been abolished long ago, but explicit governmental racism was only prohibited decades ago and black people still suffer from discrimination in every aspect of their lives. Ta-Nehisi Coates does a much better job than I could of taking this talking point apart.

Takes the piss tbh, people who ain't stupid know what racism is, this is not racism no matter how people twist it, fuck are we gonna loose the colour Black?

Let's see: the fact that hundreds of black Dutch people risked arrest and physical violence to show how angry and hurt they feel at seeing their neighbors engage in racist displays should probably tell you that yeah, it is racist. On the other hand, in the pro-Piet camp, I see a lot of white faces who just so happen to also hate foreigners.

I mean, Jesus Christ. Do I really have to explain, in the year of our Lord 2014, why it's unacceptable to engage in blackface? I've always denied that marijuana caused brain damage, but this thread is making me rethink that belief.

[Kermit]

It's a traditional christmas parade, I mean seriously your throwing a race card at it Christmas is for kids, this is for kids and they have to witness this, na it don't sit with me and I don't care what anyone says. My kids are brought up respecting anyone, they don't know about racism, they go to multicultural school and have friends from all backgrounds, that's right I live in the real world.

FFs if it was an EDL march I can understand but a kids parade

Last I need to say on this as I don't want to end up in the cooler for a month again

[treetop]

This

[Slip & Sal]

There is no reason to wear blackface. Whether you were intentionally being racist or not, blackface is inherently racist. Just. Don't. Do. It.

I mean, Jesus Christ. Do I really have to explain, in the year of our Lord 2014, why it's unacceptable to engage in blackface?

But do you think whiteface is racist?

[Slip & Sal]

African participation in the slave trade[edit]
See also: Atlantic slave trade
African states played a role in the slave trade. Slavery was a common practice among Africans. There were three types: those who were slaves through conquest, those who were slaves due to unpaid debts or those whose parents gave them as slaves to tribal chiefs. Chieftains would barter their slaves to European buyers for rum, spices, cloth or other goods.[140] Selling captives or prisoners was common practice among Africans and Arabs during that era. However, as the Atlantic slave trade increased its demand, local systems which primarily serviced indentured servitude became corrupted and started to supply the European slave traders, changing social dynamics. It also ultimately undermined local economies and political stability as villages' vital labor forces were shipped overseas as slave raids and civil wars became commonplace. Crimes which were previously punishable by some other punishment became punishable by enslavement.[141]

The prisoners and captives that were sold were usually from neighboring or enemy ethnic groups.[142] These captive slaves were not considered as part of the ethnic group or 'tribe' and kings did not have a particular loyalty to them. At times, kings and chiefs would sell criminals into slavery so that they could no longer commit crimes in that area. Most other slaves were obtained from kidnappings, or through raids that occurred at gunpoint working together with Europeans.[140] Some African kings refused to sell any of their captives or criminals. King Jaja of Opobo, a former slave himself, completely refused to do business with slavers.[142] Ashanti King Agyeman Prempeh (Ashanti king, b. 1872) also sacrificed his own freedom so that his people would not face collective slavery.[142]


The inspection and sale of a slave
Before the arrival of the Portuguese, slavery had already existed in Kingdom of Kongo. Despite its establishment within his kingdom, Afonso I of Kongo believed that the slave trade should be subject to Kongo law. When he suspected the Portuguese of receiving illegally enslaved persons to sell, he wrote letters to the King João III of Portugal in 1526 imploring him to put a stop to the practice.[143]

The kings of Dahomey sold their war captives into transatlantic slavery, who otherwise would have been killed in a ceremony known as the Annual Customs. As one of West Africa's principal slave states, Dahomey became extremely unpopular with neighbouring peoples.[144][145][146] Like the Bambara Empire to the east, the Khasso kingdoms depended heavily on the slave trade for their economy. A family's status was indicated by the number of slaves it owned, leading to wars for the sole purpose of taking more captives. This trade led the Khasso into increasing contact with the European settlements of Africa's west coast, particularly the French.[147] Benin grew increasingly rich during the 16th and 17th centuries on the slave trade with Europe; slaves from enemy states of the interior were sold, and carried to the Americas in Dutch and Portuguese ships. The Bight of Benin's shore soon came to be known as the "Slave Coast".[148]

In the 1840s, King Gezo of Dahomey said:[12][149]

"The slave trade is the ruling principle of my people. It is the source and the glory of their wealth…the mother lulls the child to sleep with notes of triumph over an enemy reduced to slavery…"


200th anniversary of the British act of parliament abolishing slave trading, commemorated on a British two pound coin.
In 1807, the UK Parliament passed the Bill that abolished the trading of slaves. The King of Bonny (now in Nigeria) was horrified at the conclusion of the practice:[150]

"We think this trade must go on. That is the verdict of our oracle and the priests. They say that your country, however great, can never stop a trade ordained by God himself."

Some historians conclude that the total loss in persons removed, those who died on the arduous march to coastal slave marts and those killed in slave raids, far exceeded the 65–75 million inhabitants remaining in Sub-Saharan Africa at the trade's end.[citation needed] Others believe that slavers had a vested interest in capturing rather than killing, and in keeping their captives alive; and that this coupled with the disproportionate removal of males and the introduction of new crops from the Americas (cassava, maize) would have limited general population decline to particular regions of western Africa around 1760–1810, and in Mozambique and neighbouring areas half a century later. There has also been speculation that within Africa, females were most often captured as brides, with their male protectors being a "bycatch" who would have been killed if there had not been an export market for them.

Scottish explorer Mungo Park encountered a group of slaves when traveling through Mandinka country:

They were all very inquisitive, but they viewed me at first with looks of horror, and repeatedly asked if my countrymen were cannibals. They were very desirous to know what became of the slaves after they had crossed the salt water. I told them that they were employed in cultivation the land; but they would not believe me ... A deeply-rooted idea that the whites purchase negroes for the purpose of devouring them, or of selling them to others that they may be devoured hereafter, naturally makes the slaves contemplate a journey towards the coast with great terror, insomuch that the slatees are forced to keep them constantly in irons, and watch them very closely, to prevent their escape.[151]

During the period from late 19th century and early 20th century, demand for the labor-intensive harvesting of rubber drove frontier expansion and forced labor. The personal monarchy of Belgian King Leopold II in the Congo Free State saw mass killings and slavery to extract rubber.[152]

Did Black people in America/worldwide^ forget this? or Were they slaves for so many generations that they never knew? (genuine question which I will look up, but answer if you will.)

Slavery was not just because of white people and it is not a reason not to be able to paint your face a certain way, especially if you want to honour someone.

Slavery is a terrible thing that happened world wide to everyone because of everyone. We don't do that anymore so everyone should get over it.

[spidergawd]

You make the case of institutional and ingrained racism very well yossarion and I believe it to be correct.
I also live in a very mixed area, in London, where my children and now my grandchildren were and are being educated and as a family we enjoy the diversity. Our schools honour and celebrate all the ethnic high days and holy days.

I do think in this day and age this custom is out of time. Maybe they could wear some raggedy clothes and carry sweeps brooms they might look a bit more like they claim to be.

Angry confrontation though rarely solves these issues. Ridicule often works a treat.
I do think that this protest was a typical wind up by those that get their power from driving communities apart. There are far more important issues to get angry about. I wonder how much energy these same individual protesters are devoting to fighting real racism and present day slavery that goes on beyond the end of their street.
It's easy to push peoples buttons these days, theres a multitude of websites to air your pet grievance. Some like change.org and avaaz carried important issues once, but now they're just full of the keyboard protesters. One click and you feel good.

[Yossarian22]

But do you think whiteface is racist?

I answered this already. No. Why? Because there was never a tradition of minstrel shows put on by blacks that helped dehumanize white people. Whiteface was never part of a cultural complex that robbed whites of their freedom and dignity. As soon as Africa invades Europe, enslaves white people, declares whites to be subhuman and creates centuries of racist oppression towards whites, then you can complain about whiteface.

Also, yes, black people did participate in the slave trade. This is well-known and it doesn't change anything. Racism goes far beyond slavery; the "golden age" of minstrel shows occurred AFTER most countries, including the US, had done away with slavery. But black people continued to be treated as subhuman and a country with a colonial legacy like NL's can't claim to be above such bigotry.

I do think that this protest was a typical wind up by those that get their power from driving communities apart. There are far more important issues to get angry about. I wonder how much energy these same individual protesters are devoting to fighting real racism and present day slavery that goes on beyond the end of their street.

You act as though these are mutually exclusive; that if you care about communal, televised displays of racism, you can't care about issues like discrimination in employment. You can and I would argue they're linked; when you allow open displays of racism, it creates a climate of permissiveness towards racism. Racism must be fought in all its forms.

[Adamster]

Zwarte Piet is a Spaniard, or an Italian chimney sweep, whose blackness is due to a permanent layer of soot on his body
he aint black so cool it black peps

[Yossarian22]

Zwarte Piet is a Spaniard, or an Italian chimney sweep, whose blackness is due to a permanent layer of soot on his body
he aint black so cool it black peps

He's a "moor" which used to be synonymous with black. Also, if his face is black because of the soot, why are his clothes spotless? Did he come down the chimney butt naked? If so, why are we celebrating a perv?

[dconstrukt]

I can't believe we're even having this conversation.

some of the comments are mindbogglingly and utterly retarded, and some of you guys should be ashamed of yourselves.

if you think for a second putting on blackface is ok… (and especially showing this to kids)

YOU ARE A FUCKING RACIST.

Period.

there is no further discussion.

deny it all you want.

come up with whatever rationalization you need to satisfy your reality.

but facts are facts… you are a fucking racist.

And showing this to kids? you're perpetuating the racism.

sad. very sad.

[KeyMonCha]

Whoa... Now this thread needs to be closed immediately!!!

...I think people need to check the definitions of heavy words like "Racism" before they go calling people such things with minimum evidence!

Racism must involve a derogatory stance... You can't be "accidentally" racist... You can only be ignorant.... And whilst ignorance isn't exactly a virtue, it's not worthy of being equated with Racism...

Whilst support for "Zwarte Piet" might have a small swelling of racist undercurrents, it's hardly portraying black people as inferior, except to maybe St Nicholas... However, aren't Santa's elves also slaves? ...And who wouldn't want to be an elf?

I honestly believe that there really are more important targets to be aiming for regarding Racism.... And a couple of random remarks on an Amsterdam Coffeeshop Forum are hardly a definite indication of someones soul; So maybe we should hold off on the direct finger-pointing? Most people really have no malice, or hatred, or a feeling of superiority over other races... Just as with your best mates, you're allowed some good natured banter occasionally... So long as all parties understand that... But we'll never truly get beyond this casual racism stuff, so long as there are different rules for "us, and them".


Peace!