KeyMonCha wrote: ↑Sat 25th Jul 2020 11:39 pm
...Kinda took me out of context there, mof'! ...I may have over-simplified and understated that, but the context was based simply in regards to when certain people stand up for the constitution like it's the word of God himself, yet seem to be suspiciously quiet if it's not their team on the defensive... Maybe i should have used a better example... Shit, there's plenty of 'em... Pick your policy!
OHMF; Can you mark it tonight, so i can get my grade in the morning?
Hey man - I did wonder whether I'd misunderstood your point (and to be honest I still don't full understand it). Given I've met you personally and you seemed like a genuinely sensitive, thoughtful and intelligent man, I was shocked by the understatement. So apologies for any confusion on my part and thanks for the polite reply and clarification - it's much appreciated. I'm struggling to put myself in the shoes of anyone that thinks the riots in America are in any way useful or justified. And I'm genuinely looking to understand that perspective rather than judge it. I realise what I typed was on the challenging side so I genuinely appreciate the time taken to respond.
As for your marks
10/10 for this statement:
KeyMonCha wrote: ↑Sun 26th Jul 2020 12:07 am
Actually, this is all quite telling...
...No one quite goes after the 'Left', like the 'Left'!
...We cannibalise ourselves in a way i rarely see those on the Right doing.
...This is why the Right are winning the arguments.
Indeed - in fact I'd go as far as saying it's a major reason why the right are winning elections never-mind arguments.
Until we have a cohesive and efficient opposition - the tendency to tyranny of the right will prevail. It's a shame that here in the UK we have a completely ineffective left. I had hopes for Starmer (hell I had hopes for Corbyn until he threw his self-respect out of the window in those final days of the campaign and blatanly lied on national TV about the content of his NHS 'expose'.), but they're fading by the day. They just can't seem to get it together and to my mind are deeply unelectable. They can't even agree between them what does and does not constitute antisemitic racism or who's guilty of it. What a shit-show.
The US seems to be doing slightly better in that respect. They have Tulsi Gabbard, or Bernie. Either of whom's policies I could vote for in a heartbeat given an opportunity. They're moderate, intelligent and focussed on policy not seemingly bogged down in endless myopic judgement of anyone that disagrees with them. Unfortunately the Democrats seem keener to let the radical contingent run amok. Cortez and her merry band of fuckwits etc. Which is terrifyingly where I find myself agreeing with Trump. What a shit-show.
Hopefully Starmer can get a grip on the Labour party and get back to what matters. It remains to be seen. I'm not holding my breath.
free_phil_spector wrote: ↑Sat 25th Jul 2020 11:46 pm
No offence but using the "have you asked them all?" line is a cheap shot. Of course I haven't. I can only go by my own experiences and the discourse I have with my friends and that I see on social media. And I'm yet to 'meet' a single Trump supporter who thinks (for example) that the BLM movement is a good thing. Most of them them seem to think it's black people 'getting above their station'. It's a mindset. And not a very nice one.
Indeed it was a cheap shot, hopefully I'd tempered it with enough due-respect so that it didn't seem outright offensive. Apologies if I missed that mark. In my defence, simply saying "I disagree" doesn't quite cut through the language you were using, so felt that I needed a stronger message to get a foot in the door. Reading my post back this morning in light of your replies, my cheap shot isn't the only part of my post that makes me seem like a pompous arsehole so thanks for your restraint.
On a side - but related note, seeing as you mention it. I know of plenty of moderate centrists (and know some personally) that are good people but don't support BLM (the organisation - NOT the idea, which anyone would be a monster not to support) because as an organisation it's been infected by the radical left and is now an outspoken neo-marxist political tool, making the organisation itself impossible to condone for anyone that isn't an outright radical. Myself included; I do not support the idea of defunding the police, in America or indeed anywhere else. I think it's a terrible idea. An I don't think the organisation has done anywhere near enough (recently or historically) to denounce and quell the violent sentiments expressed by a minority of violent radicals within its midst. So unfortunately I cannot support BLM as an organisation. Again - it's seemingly impossible to voice these concerns at the moment without being labelled a racist, fascist or worse. Another prime example of the closing down of debate by the left with an absolute refusal to try to understand the tone of the critique.
I think there's some truth in your statement:
free_phil_spector wrote:
I'd wager pretty much all gun-toting rednecks are Trump supporters.
It's an amusing point that I often enjoy seeing made. But I'd also point out that there is PLENTY of problematic behaviour from the left. Including gun-toting rednecks and outright racism. And perhaps worse (because it's on a much larger scale), a seeming inability to concede any point or even debate a point without judging an opponent as lesser.
The left needs to stop the snobbery, admit and appreciate its failings and move forwards if it want's to be taken seriously by the centre ground, because while ever it screeches and judges the opposing side about rampant unfairness and prejudice while itself being unfair and prejudiced - respect is going to be increasingly hard to come by.
free_phil_spector wrote:
Yes I'm generalising. Yes I'm being unkind, ungracious and using the sort of tone that wins no one over. But that's the bulk of yer Trump supporters right there. And to get back to the point of this thread - they ain't gone away.
Yes - you are. And you'd be an order of magnitude more persuasive if you didn't sound like you were judging them for their bad choices.
Just a thought. I learned this from 40 years of arguing with an unfortunately racist father.
free_phil_spector wrote: ↑Sat 25th Jul 2020 11:46 pm
But people have learned nothing from the last four years if they think Biden is a shoo-in for this election.
Agreed - I think Trump is in for another term.
Thanks again for the debate, and apologies again for any place my challenge may have crossed the line of decency. Your understanding is much appreciated. It's respectful discourse about difficult issues that will move the debate forwards. Of that I have no doubt.
Finally:
macky wrote: ↑Sun 26th Jul 2020 01:39 pm
Regulation of facebook etc. Is not about suppressing anyone’s free speech or there right to talk nonsense . But there’s is huge money behind disinformation..there is no rules like newspapers e.g. sue them .
It’s the Wild West . The Sinclair group was given a monopoly on local news by Trump disregarding the rules ,because there right wing and willing to push anything made up by republicans. Trump has his own right wing TV station worse then fox
There mixed in with press pool ,he calls on them to frame there ? To fit his made up reality. Hard to argue with people who are being indoctrinated . Half of them believe people walked with dinosaurs for fuck .......
Yes, point taken. I have no problem at all with social media platforms being held to a higher standard of editorial control where news publishing is concerned. Apologies for jumping to the conclusion that you were talking about regulation of speech.
